The Most Valuable Sales Training You’ll Ever Watch

So, for absolutely years, the word sales genuinely gave me [music] the ick. Like most people, I thought it was a bit sleazy, maybe even a bit evil. Like the whole job was using psychology to trick people into handing over their money. And I see this exact same fear in the hundreds of people that I mentor to build their own businesses. They're scared of putting themselves out there or of coming across like a used car salesman. And this is a real shame, right? Because in a world

where AI can build your website or code your app or write your emails, that soft skill of being able to sit down with another human being and help them decide to buy something from you in a way that doesn't feel weird or cringe, that is one of the single most valuable [music] skills you can develop if you care about making money in any kind of way. >> I've actually found some [music] of the best sales people are not high charisma. They're good listeners, experts at what

they're talking about. They have great product knowledge. Sometimes engineers make the best [music] sales people. Sometimes introverts make way better sales people. >> That is serial entrepreneur Dan Priestley. He's a friend and mentor of mine with multiple seven and eight-figure businesses. [music] And in his career, he has done literally thousands of sales meetings in real life and online, selling everything from $10 products all the way through to multi-six-figure engagements. >> I don't believe that you can get people to do anything they don't want to do.

People notoriously don't change their mind and they don't do things they don't want to do. >> In this video, we're going to break down Daniel Priestley's zero pressure sales system. >> I think the sales person is on the exact same team as the person buying. So, [music] essentially, that's the whole sales presentation. >> And we're going to do it through a live sales role-play where Dan is trying to sell me on one of his products. And you'll see me throw a bunch of different objections at

him, like, I can't afford it. It's too expensive. Oh my goodness, that just feels way too expensive. [music] And as we go through the role-play, we'll break down the zero pressure sales system. >> Simple, right? >> Yeah, it didn't It did not feel at all salesy. Like, if anyone If there are anyone at this point in the video, like, there was nothing about that that felt like I was talking to a sales person, which you can use straight away after watching this video, whatever you're trying

to sell, whether that's your first client for your online business or maybe even just pitching an idea to your boss or your manager. And by the way, we've put the entire zero pressure sales system into a cheat sheet that you can download completely for free in the video description. So, let's dive into it. Lesson number one, sales isn't what you think. >> Why do so many people get the ick at the word sales? >> Well, I remember working with your team and your team had the

ick when it comes to sales. And the things that they said is that they felt that sales was pushing ideas onto people who wouldn't otherwise have adopted those ideas. It was forcing people to do something they didn't really want to do. It was getting people to make financial commitments that they weren't ready for. So, those are the kind of common misconceptions that a lot of people have about sales. Obviously, that happens in a sales environment. You know, when you think about sales as a profession there's

good people and and people who are not great. But essentially, those were the things that people thought good sales people were doing. And I was saying that's not good sales people, that's bad sales people. In the same way, you know, if we're talking about doctors, I'm sure there are doctors who over medicate, but that's not what good doctors are doing. >> I think this whole thing around like sell me this pen and this is like Wolf of Wall Street, all of this sort of stuff. Before

I did that sales training session with you a few years ago, in my mind sales felt like an adversarial thing where a sales person uses like psychology and manipulation to sort of almost like trick someone into giving them their money. Kind of vibe. >> I think the sales person is on the exact same team as the person buying. I don't believe that you can get people to do anything they don't want to do. I don't believe you can get people to change their mind on anything.

People notoriously don't change their mind and they don't do things they don't want to do. So, the idea that a sales person could somehow magically meet someone, change their mind, get them to do stuff that they don't want to do is absolutely against all things that we know about humans. You might be able to get someone to do that very temporarily. You might be able to pressure them, but they will say yes on the spot and then they won't send the money. Or they will say

yes on the spot and then they'll refund 24 hours later. It's not a long-term strategy. Great sales people are only there to help you to connect the dots that you haven't seen yourself. So, you may want to You may want a particular outcome. And you may say, "This is the outcome I'm trying to achieve." And it's like, "Oh, have you considered this? Have you considered that this works? Are you aware of this evidence? Are you aware of these proof stories? Um have you seen that this

methodology works pretty well for that? And essentially, I'm enlightening you to uh an outcome or a way of getting to an outcome that you may not have considered. You might also have some barriers. You might say, "Actually, I would love to do that, but it wouldn't work for me because this, this, and this." And it's like, "Oh, you might not be aware, but there's this payment plan, or there's this way of doing it." So, it's just going through and helping people understand the full landscape of

what they're trying to achieve. Um if we think about something like like anything that's a considered sale, if someone already understood everything about it, they probably would have done something already. The fact that someone has a frustration and an outcome, and those two things are not the same, means that there's some missing piece of information. They're just they're not getting it. So, like for example, I might want to save up for my retirement. I might want to have more wealth uh after the age of 65,

and I'm frustrated that I'm not on track with that. Then, if I talk to a uh like a financial planner, their job is to help me to understand what are the predictable pathways to get there, and to show it to me so that I understand it. And if I understand it, then I'm going to act upon it. >> So, that is the big reframe that really helps you approach sales in a non-weird way. It's not that you and the buyer are on opposite sides, and you're

trying to convince them to give you their money. Instead, you're literally on the same team, on the same side of the table, trying to make a decision together about whether this thing makes sense for them. It's kind of like visiting a good doctor, right? Like you come in with a problem, they'll ask clarifying questions to help you both figure out what the problem actually is, and their job is to help you come to the right decision for you, whether that's to work with them, or to

not work with them, or to take medication, or surgery, or nothing at all. Now, at this point in the video, you might be thinking, "Oh, fine, but I'm not a salesperson. I'm a designer, or a consultant, or I've got a corporate job, or whatever." Which brings us on to lesson number two, which is why even in those contexts, sales is probably the single most valuable skill you can develop. >> One thing you've often said is that, and I probably agree, is that sales is one of

the most important skills a person can develop. >> I wonder, what's your like, yeah. Why Why is sales one of the most important skills someone should develop? >> Because when people spend money, there's a process that they have to go through where they have to really understand their own situation and what's really going on for them, and they need to get clarity around that. And then they need to explore their alternatives, that the options that they've got available. And then they need to select a pathway,

and it's actually not easy to do that um because a lot of the time you don't have objectivity, you're too close to your own situation, you're not an expert, so you don't understand all the full range of options. There are things that sound good that don't work. There are things that uh sound bad that they actually do work. Uh and it's the salesperson's job to coach you and be the person who knows more about the situation than you do, and it's their job to actually help

you to understand your full range of options and to select the best option for you. Um the that that's not going to go away. The other thing that's really interesting is that when you get behind the scenes on all high performance, almost every single level of high performance involves sales. So, high-performing CEOs are sales people. They have to make sales. Uh high-performing entrepreneurs definitely sales people. Even when you go to something like a high-performing athlete, some of the top athletes are actually sales people in the

sense that the most amount of money that they're making is through sponsorship deals and all of that sort of stuff. So, those sales skills of navigating decision-making, helping others to make better decisions, those are so broadly applicable, and especially in the age of AI. I can't think of another skill set that is just like so relevant in this in this world. >> It's definitely important for entrepreneurs, but I think one thing that surprised me was when I spoke to friends who were partners at management consulting

firms or law firm partners and stuff, a lot of what they get paid for is to bring in the sales. They don't call it sales, they call it biz dev or something like that because they're like sales is a weird word in that >> being a senior partner. >> Yeah, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. Um and you know, the the reason they pay them insane insane amounts of money is not because they're better at designing PowerPoint slides than the associates. It's because they are literally

bringing in the money. >> Well, they don't do any of that anymore. It's the associates that do the work. And all of the junior roles, they're the ones looking after the clients, doing the work. It's the senior partners who bring in the money. And if you can show that you bring in the money, you become a partner very quickly. And if you're amazing at the work, but you can't bring in the money, you don't become a partner very quickly. And that's just how it is. Senior

lawyers are the people who know how to bring in amazing clients. Uh senior management consultants, they bring in amazing clients. Senior investment bankers, they bring in the investors. So, it is it's the sales people that rise up to the top. >> Yeah, and often in in a lot of companies, the sales people make more money than the CEO does. Cuz they're the ones like bringing in the >> It can be the case, but great CEOs are great sales people. Like the really the like if you

take Jamie Dimon, Jamie Dimon is the CEO of JP Morgan. And he's a world-class salesperson. In fact, when someone's making a lot of money really quickly, he personally picks up the phone and says, "I want you to come and bank with JP Morgan." And there's famous stories of him doing that with the founder of Airbnb and the founder of Spotify and all these kind of companies, where he personally cold outreaches and says, "Hey, I'm Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JP Morgan. Um I'd like to talk

to you about what we can help you with now that you're a multi-billionaire." Right? >> All right. So, one key thing I've learned from running this business is that being busy is really not the same as being productive. Like if you're selling stuff online, you can spend your entire day replying to comments and DMs, but you might not actually get any sales for the thing that you are trying to sell. Now, this is where ManyChat comes in, who are very kindly sponsoring this video. ManyChat is

>> a wonderful tool for social media automation. So, if for example, you go on Instagram, you'll often see like big creators doing that thing where they say, "Hey, comment the word uh books and I will send you my free guide to books." Or comment the word course and I'll send you my course on whatever the thing might be. Now, especially if you have lots of comments, doing that stuff manually is a total nightmare. And even if you don't have that many followers, still doing that stuff

manually is a total nightmare. But the great thing about ManyChat is that it's an official Meta business partner, which means you don't need to worry about this kind of automation banning your Instagram account, which would probably be pretty bad. But instead, what you can do is you can go on ManyChat and you can create these visual automations within a few minutes. So, in our account, we've got loads and loads of these automations that offer people free resources or sign-ups to my email list, and even some

of these automations that actively sell our products. And so, what ManyChat can do is that it can take comments and DMs and story replies, and if they trigger a particular keyword, it can run automations based on that, which is insanely helpful. The really cool thing is that it can even act as your own follow-up system. So, for example, if people are asking questions about your product, it can answer those questions instantly using your own knowledge base. It can point people in the right direction of the

support email or whatever, and it can show people exactly how to enroll in your product and even collect emails along the way, which is great for building up your own email list. Cuz to be honest, especially if you're trying to create stuff online, like as you know, building the product is just the beginning. Selling the product is way, way, way harder and way more of a long slog, and that is where a tool like ManyChat can really help. So, if you are looking to grow your

business or your audience online, then try to comment the word empire on literally any of my Instagram posts. And using ManyChat, I will send you a completely free resource to help you with audience building and also give you a link to 30 free days of ManyChat Pro. Alternatively, if you don't want to go over to Instagram, there's a link down in the video description. And if you go to the checkout on the web, you can use the code Ali Abdaal for that free 30-day trial. Thanks

again to ManyChat for sponsoring this video, and let's get back to it. I remember there was one thing you said it might have been on the podcast that we did in like 5 years ago or something, which has really stuck with me, which is I think you said something like winning the work is a lot harder than doing work. Hmm. I wonder if you can riff on that. >> Well, it used to be 100 years ago that it was very hard to make something, and if

you could make it, you would easily sell it. So, take a pair of scissors, for example. Um here in the UK, we used to manufacture things like scissors and claw square and plates and pottery and all that sort of stuff. And there were these factories that struggled to figure out the process of how to actually build these things, and they built production lines and all that. Once you could make a pair of scissors, it was very easy to like sell them because lots of unmet needs

out there in the market, but so everyone wanted to buy a pair of scissors. So, essentially, the hard thing 100 years ago was production, producing something of value. Um it that pendulum has now massively swung. Like if you go on Amazon and look for a pair of scissors, there's a thousand different pairs of scissors, big ones, little ones, medical ones, ribbon-cutting scissors, like everything. So, making scissors is not hard. Getting people to want to buy a pair of scissors is actually the hard thing. Uh same

thing with all industries making uh a website's not hard. Getting someone to commit to buying a website is hard. Delivering powerful coaching conversations, obviously it's an incredible skill, getting people to sign up for a coaching package is a much harder skill. So, the money always moves to the hard thing. Whatever is the harder problem, that's where the money's going to be. So, if it's easy to manufacture something or if it's easy to make something, but it's hard to sell something, the money is always going to

be in the harder thing, which is selling something. >> Yeah, and I think with the whole like AI vibe coding stuff, this is like even more true, where even even pre-AI, the advice for startup founders was the it was it was that adage of like, "First-time founders focus on product, second-time founders focus on distribution." Because even before AI, people realized that actually writing the code is actually not the hard part. Getting people to want to buy the software is the harder part, and therefore second-time founders

focus on distribution. Um now with the whole vibe coding thing, we get a lot of students applying to our Lifestyle Business Academy who are like, "Oh, I'm an engineer, and I know how to vibe code stuff. Great, I can make all this money." And we're like, "That may be true, but like, let's help you learn the skills of marketing and sales, cuz that is really where the value's created, rather than in the skill of actually actually like creating the product." >> Yeah, it's like a chef

saying, "I know how to cook food, so therefore I'll have a full restaurant." You you you might know how to cook a meal, you don't know how to get people to sit down at the restaurant, and that's that's the different skill set. Some of the best restaurateurs had to learn the skill of getting a full restaurant, which was very different to the skill of having great food. There are plenty of places that have great food that are empty. >> Mhm. Okay. So, even if you're not

trying to start your own business, and you merely want to climb up the corporate ladder in your own current situation, getting really good at sales is one of those skills that will help you absolutely print money. Lesson number three, sales does not require charisma. This is one of the ones that really trips up students in our Lifestyle Business Academy, which is our online business school, is that we've got people coming in with 10, 15, 20 years of corporate experience. They're really good at what they do,

but they feel like a total fraud or an impostor as soon as they even think about selling their very first product or service. And what they worry about is that they've seen sales people in their organization, and those people seem so charismatic, they seem so natural at the skill of sales. But the key point here is that sales is a system and process and skill that can be learned by anyone regardless of your personal charisma levels. >> So, sales is a skill as a skill it

can be learned. Um that idea I think also throws a lot of people off because they view sales as being almost like that. I I think most normal most normal people don't think about it, um but subconsciously there's this idea that uh just like charisma or confidence, this is something that you're born with or something that you sort of you know, rather than something that you can like you know, frameworkify and actually learn. >> I've actually found some of the best sales people are not high

charisma. Um they're good they're good listeners, they're good um experts at what they're talking about, they have great product knowledge. Sometimes engineers make the best sales people, sometimes introverts make way better sales people. Uh often people who have natural energy and charisma uh in a sales role actually get viewed with a little bit of skepticism. The people feel that they might get swept up in that charisma and that um ultimately they might make a decision that's not based on facts. Um if someone's really chatty and

charismatic and all of those sorts of things. So, it can work against you in a sales role. Um I think the thing that really sets it apart is that if you come from a space of genuinely wanting to make sure that the right people buy and that they're buying the right thing for the right reasons and that you're willing to get rid of uh a sale if it's not the right person and the right product, um then you're in a good space. >> Mhm. Okay, one

final question I think before we dive into the the A4 sales method is we get a lot of beginners in our Lifestyle Business Academy who are trying to sell their very first product or their very first service, whether it's a done-for-you service based on their professional expertise or like a coaching or consulting or whatever. And even if they have 20 years of experience doing the skill in like corporate environment, they still have never delivered the service for an actual client. And so they they remarkably low

conviction in their own skills, and they have all this imposter syndrome and analysis paralysis and kind of like the Dunning-Kruger effect, they know what they don't know and so they're like, "Ah." And so for them going into trying to make a sale for their very first client >> Mhm. >> feels like like they're a scammer deep down and like they'll be scamming the person out of their money and then that energy bleeds into every single interaction and then they don't end up making the sale. What

are your thoughts on for for people who are who are actually trying to sell something that they do not yet have the confidence to actually deliver on? Any tips around >> Yeah, well, if you feel like a scammer, it's going to be very hard to make a scale if you're a sale if you're an ethical person. Um one of the things that I would do from a business perspective is I would partner with someone who is an amazing professional to oversee your work. So, for example,

if you are a coach, if you're a consultant, if you are a web developer or something like that, you would actually bring someone in who's way more senior than you are to supervise and oversee and you would actually give them a percentage of the work. So, that would be way more effective from just from a business point of view. So, you might say um you might say, "Look, I'm a consultant I work on um automation and I have a senior consultant who develops the strategy and

oversees and checks the strategy who has got 20 years more experience than I have or who's worked on projects like yours." And what you do is you just factor in their day rate, you factor in their costs and you might say on a 30-day engagement, I'm going to factor in a 3 days with a super senior person who's going to oversee the work and and do do some work with you. Um every business I started when I was in my 20s, I had what I called

a key person of influence or a senior person who was on like effectively on the team. Um and I paid them a day rate and typically they were uh employed for 1 to 2 days a month and their job was to essentially be the reputation and the face and check things off and make sure things went well. So, um it's a super powerful strategy, but it's also a really good sales strategy because if you're thinking that, your customers are going to ask that question as well.

They're going to say, "Hey, look, you seem pretty new to this. What happens if things go wrong? Being able to say, "Actually, I've got a senior consultant who works with me on all my projects." is super powerful. >> Mhm. Okay. What if that is, for whatever reason, not an option? Any other things you found helped the first-time person have a bit more confidence that they're not just selling a scam? >> So, you can do a risk reversal. And a risk reversal is where you say, "Look,

because you're one of my first 10 clients, what I'm doing is I'm actually saying that uh if we get to the end of the project and you're not happy, we will continue at my cost until you are happy, uh or you can have a full and complete refund." So, you might do that for your first 10 clients just to simply build that confidence. >> Mhm. Yeah, I'm really bullish on the full and complete refund method. It's just sort of like we we even framed it on

framed it on our sales pages and stuff as the help Ali sleep at night money-back guarantee. And the way I sort of frame it is that like, you know, I will lose sleep if someone out there is not happy with our stuff, and therefore we have this like 60, 90, 30-day money-back guarantee for whatever reason, all of that kind of stuff. And that especially when we're launching new products, just drastically increases my own confidence that I'm not, in fact, scamming anyone. >> It's a complete get-out-of-jail

clause, right? So, you're not happy, just let us know, and we'll we'll reverse the whole thing. >> On that though, sometimes I get the I get the pushback from some of our students that like, "Yeah, but then I'll have to refund them." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah, and that's business, right? And that is the difference between a paycheck and running your own business. There's the exciting upside, but there's also more responsibility. Um so, uh you Look, there's different ways you can structure it where you

could say we do a 50% refund, or we continue to work until you are happy, um and we get the we get the result that you want. You can also limit it. You can say this is something I'm doing for the first five clients, and at the end of five clients, your confidence has now gone up. So, then you reduce the terms of the the guarantee. >> Lesson number four, treat sales like a professional. When it comes to sales then, what what we basically said is

that the skill of sales is a skill that anyone can learn, that probably everyone should learn, because even if you are not an entrepreneur, uh even if you are an employee, you are always in the business of selling. Either you are selling to your team or to your manager or your manager's manager or you're trying to sell yourself and your skills next time you're getting a promotion or if you're getting super high up in an organization or trying to get super high up in an organization,

the way you get there is through bringing in more effort. >> Through having sales skills, yeah. Um so sales is a profession and you should treat it as a profession. So consider what is a profession. It's something that has a a body of knowledge and a set of skills and people invest in training and they read books about it and they do role play and rehearsal and they do documentation. They keep their records. They keep their notes. Anyone who you would describe as a professional would

be doing all of those things in any field and sales is no different. The best sales people are analyzing their sales meetings. They're getting coaching and they're getting training and all of that all of that sort of stuff. So rule number one with sales is treat it as a profession, right? Or assume that it's a profession. Assume that it is a profession that has a 100 years worth of innovation built into it and you should try and get on the same page as the best thinkers

in that space. So that's what you do if you're a professional in any field. You wouldn't just sort of like I would never go into medicine and go, "Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could just wing it. I could I'll give it a shot. Like I'll I've been I've had a GP appointment. So therefore I reckon I could deliver a GP appointment." It's like, "No, it's a profession. You need to like invest in your skills and your training." Um now obviously sales probably doesn't need as much

training as a doctor, but it's still a profession and there's still 100 years worth of best practice and thinking inside sales profession. So that's rule one, treat it as a profession. >> Love it. >> Yeah, one thing that sort of when when you ran your the the sales training uh with with me and the team a few years ago, one thing that I that sort of clicked for me is that almost all of the skills of sales map directly to the skills of being a good

doctor. Um like the process we learned in medical school for like how to talk to a patient follows a framework. It's called the Calgary-Cambridge model and there's like a series of questions that you ask and for the most part you're doing 80% of the listening. You're like you're listening way more talking. You're making sure you understand the situation before trying to come to any kind of diagnosis or insight and certainly before trying to prescribe anything. You're giving the patient options based on what's best for them.

You're not like trying to shove anything particular down their throat and you're genuinely you're both working together to try and solve that problem. And that seems to be exactly what they >> Honestly, it's such a great analogy and it's such a great like overlap and great sales people are like doctors, general practitioners, more listening in the beginning, diagnosing a problem, confirming that they understand the problem, trying to find the root causes and the deeper understanding of the problem, making recommendations, giving treatment plans. An offer is

a treatment plan. An offer is a path of least resistance that we think would actually solve the problem that someone's trying to solve. So, it's it's absolutely perfect as an analogy. Also as an idea of this is a professional who has a professional approach, who's got an a professional opinion grounded in study. And if you are that type of sales people you person, you're going to do great. >> Beautiful. >> Lesson number five, watch a real sales meeting from start to finish. >> All right, so

let's go into how to actually sell the thing. Now, one thing that is worth flagging is that we are deliberately sitting on the same side of the table here. Um we were we we we thought about doing this as like a podcast setup where we're like face facing across from each other. Um but we ended up in this in this kind of setup and I wonder if you can share like what's your what's your approach >> I I've literally done thousands of face-to-face one-to-one sales meetings

and almost all of them have either been sitting side by side or on just the right angles of the table together, never opposite each other. Like a good sales presentation should be that we are on the same side trying to solve the same problem. We're looking at the same thing from the same angles. You know, I'm I'm going to show you some materials. I'm going to draw on a piece of paper. All of that is what a really great sales presentation looks like. If you imagine

really great sales people selling real estate, they're side by side, shoulder by shoulder walking you through your options. Uh a great uh person who might be selling technology would be with you as we look at the problem, as we look at the outcomes that you're trying to get. So, it's like I'm going to be your guide. I'm going to be your partner in making a great decision. So, where would the partner in making a great decision sit? Right right next to you. >> Mhm. Amazing. You've

got an Apple Score app that I'm an investor in. Should we use that as like an example and imagine we're having like a sales meeting where we're at a coffee shop or something. Sure. We're sitting across the table from one another. How do these things go? Like what's what's next? >> When I first launched Score app, I did sit down with probably 150 entrepreneurs to sell Score app to them as a salesperson. And the reason I did that is not because that's the best way to

scale a software company. I did that because I really wanted to understand what problem people were trying to solve and I wanted to really get to know my customers and really get to know what what's going through their mind. So, I just conducted sales meeting after sales meeting after sales meeting one-on-one. And then I did group sales meetings with a with five to 10 people around the boardroom and I'm up close and personal with them. So, here's how I structure a sales meeting and I'll give

you the basic version first. The basic version is this. It's where are you now, where do you want to be, and what's in your way? So, the opening of any good sales meeting is your current reality, your desired reality, and your obstacles or criteria that sit in in the middle. So, for example, I might say to you, um Ali, do you currently like generate leads? Do you run marketing campaigns? What are some of the things that you do to generate your marketing right now? >> Before

we go into that, would there be any kind of preamble? Like how do you how do you like introduce it? >> If I was to do a start off a sales me >> Yeah, so in a a more advanced uh training, I would talk about two things that happen preamble, which is called framing and rapport. So, framing is essentially making sure that you know a little bit about me in advance um and that you don't have misconceptions in advance. That you see me as someone who's

on your side. Um so, framing could be sending you through any materials that might be worth looking at in advance. It could be sending you through um a questionnaire. It could be um that you've seen my website or that you've watched a piece of content. Right? All of that helps build the frame. It's the lead-up. Um rapport is that we're on the same page with we we've got good chemistry. So, in a typical sales meeting rapport might be a little bit of chitchat for a few

minutes. Get to know each other. Um you don't want to overdo it. Like no one wants a new best friend from a sales person, but just you know, the simple stuff of like um if I got introduced to you through a friend, I might say, "Hey, it was lovely of Ollie to make an introduction and put us in touch. Uh have you come from far?" You know, "Oh, yeah, I came across London." Right? A little bit of chitchat, great. And then I would say, "Hey, what

what I'd love to do is I know that you're interested in getting better marketing results and you're exploring the ways to get better marketing results. Um I would love to show you how we do that and let you evaluate that. Um could I take you through a little bit of a process where what I would like to do is find out about what's working for you right now, what's not working for you right now, what you've tried that hasn't worked, what you've tried that has worked.

I'd love to know 2 or 3 years from now what would be the best-case scenario that you would love to get to. And then I'll show you how our team would approach that, and then you can evaluate whether that is a good strategy or not. >> Yeah, let's >> So, that's By the way, by the way, that's me framing up the conversation. So, I'm actually framing up here's what we're going to talk about. Cool. So, it sounds like, "Oh, there's a bit of a process. That's

great. We're not going to have a stupid chitchat. We're actually going to move in the right direction." Okay, so I'd say, "Ollie, um since we're talking about marketing campaigns, tell me about your current marketing. What works? What doesn't work? What's the current situation with your marketing?" >> Yeah, so um let's talk about Super Focus. So, we have a productivity app for Super Focus >> Mhm. >> uh that we are trying to market. And right now we are running a few ads um and sending traffic to

a landing page. >> Mhm. >> And that landing page has some stuff on it. And then some people will click the thing and click the sign-up button. And then a very small percentage of people will sign up to um the annual subscription. >> Ballpark, do you know what is the number of people who hit that landing page and how many then sign up? >> Our conversion rate from landing page view to actually paying is about 1%. >> Okay. >> Um but there's like a few steps

in that process. So, there's like they click on the sign-up button. They say they're signing in or something. As soon as they see the checkout page, there's a massive drop off. But, like overall, it's about like 100 people will hit the landing page, and one of them will convert to a paying customer. And I think we're getting about 100 new paying customers a week. >> Okay. >> So, whatever that translates >> And do you know, roughly speaking, like cost per lead, um or cost per sale?

>> Cost per sale right now is So, I think I think it's about $50 US cost per sale, and the cost of the thing, I think it's 250. >> Okay. So, lifetime value is 250, and the cost per sale is is 50. >> I'm not sure if LTV is 250. Uh the first transaction is 250. >> Okay. >> And then, in theory, they'll hopefully renew and stuff. >> Great. So, great ratios. That's That's really great. >> for now, but I think our our ad spend is

only in the region of a few thousand dollars a month, so I think here that it gets >> Yeah, it So, it could be that it it gets hard to scale. When people hit this landing page, what's on the landing page? Like, is it interactive? Is there stuff for people to do? Or is it just essentially buy or don't buy? >> Uh it's pretty much buy or don't buy. So, this is what the landing page looks like. >> So, it's sort of like a bit of

a >> you know, the usual SaaS product landing page with Yeah, we we we've kind of got a demo, but like >> a demo video? Yep. >> Uh almost no one clicks the watch demo to actually watch the demo, because it's like hidden behind a button. >> So, they scroll down, there's some screenshots. >> screenshots and things. >> But, it's fairly static. >> It's entirely static, yeah. >> Yep. Okay. But, it has all the most important information. It's got your credibility, and then it's got straight

to buy or don't buy. >> Pretty much, yeah. >> Okay. Cool. So, let me ask you some other questions. Where do you want this business to be in the future? Like, if we were to think 3 years into the future, I see that you're celebrating some massive milestone. What would you love to be celebrating 3 years from now? >> Oh, 3 years from now. Man, if we could hit 10 million ARR, that would be sick. >> Yeah. >> Um I think that's quite doable, uh cuz

I think the product is good and getting way better over time. So, that would be awesome. And if we had like yeah thousands of users uh that were actually using it every day. >> On 10 million ARR, how many users would that be? >> Let's do the math on that. It's annual recurring revenue, so let's see. And we'll divide and let's say it's I'm doing 200 a year. 50,000 users. >> Okay, so we're going to get 50,000 users across the next 3 years. >> Yeah. >>

Yeah, fair enough. Great. Um anything else? >> I would love for them to be having a great experience of it. So, I'd love to have amazing case studies and testimonials and reviews and stuff from people saying that this is incredible and it's like fun >> Just an awesome experience score. People love the product. Fantastic. Anything else that you want to celebrate? >> Um when it comes to this >> I think if we can just build a really cool product that me and my team are using

every day and that users love, then you know, I I I kind of hope the score will take care of itself. That's well, but like you know, the hard part is the marketing. So >> Got it. Really cool. And when we think about the perfect user who will love that, have you got an actual ideal customer in mind? >> We have a sort of So, it's probably it is like a um knowledge worker who has a lot going on in their life. They probably have kids.

>> Mhm. >> Uh they're probably aged 35 plus. Um probably in a uh sort of high income job, high income market kind of thing. >> Mhm. >> Where they have way too much to do and not enough time to do it in. And they're not like on the bleeding edge of AI adoption. So, they're not running a swarm of Claude code agents in 2020. >> So, they're aware of AI, but they're not maximum leverage on it. >> Uh yeah, I mean they're they're beyond a free

user of ChatGPT. >> Yep. >> Uh but they're not and maybe they double with Claude code or Claude code work or code X, but they're not running their own uh homies agent on a VPS to like run Claude skills running in the background. >> there's plenty of these people out there. >> Yeah. Okay. Are these people entrepreneurs or they could work in a business? >> They totally could work in a business. Um >> Okay. >> But a lot of them actually have a desire to start

their own thing on the side, whether it's for a hobby or for side income. That seems to be a key core desire amongst them when when we do user interviews. >> Okay, amazing. So, um tell me, what do you think is the biggest challenge that you're going to face in the next couple of years when it comes to your marketing campaigns, engaging people, getting those 50,000 people to pay 200 a year and love it? What do you perceive to be your biggest future challenges? What do

you think could hold you back? >> Um hm, good question. I think so right now we have a hard paywall. So, people have to sign up to the thing before they try out the software. >> Mhm. >> We keep on going back and forth about do we go freemium or do we go hard paywall? And so there's like, you know, that sort of thing. Obviously, with a hard paywall at the front, it is um someone has to be more committed to get out of the credit

card and sign up for a trial. Should we offer free trials as a free service? So, there's you know, there's there's that whole thing. Uh I have heard um that the freemium model also is is not without risks. You get a lot of activation, a lot of a lot of users, but then very low activation, then very low >> Mhm. >> sort of ascension into the paid product. Especially we've got some AI features and so the AI bills, then we're spending a lot of free like,

I you know, it's it feels like a not a non-trivial question about do we do paywall, do we do free trial, do we do freemium, whatever. So, there's that thing. I think number two is um What are the other challenges? This is a So, this is a really good question. I actually haven't sat down to think about this. So, I have a large organic audience, which is a bit of an unfair advantage, but I also don't want to be shilling the product all the time. And

so, I don't want to like constantly be hammering like, "Hey guys, we've got an app." >> Mhm. >> If the app is good, then I in a way I do sort of want to be hammering it. But even just that framing of a hammering it sounds like adversarial, like I'm causing damage to someone by telling them about the product. I would love to I don't know. Either way, in a way I think my own mindset towards this is a little bit of a problem because I

view talking about my stuff as being salesy and I view salesy as actually being a bad thing even to this day. >> But you know what? Even still, even if you do it really elegantly, people do get sick of hearing about it. Like, you know, that is a real thing. You can exhaust people's awareness of this and they do resist it. Um one thing I noticed is that if you want 50,000 people and you only get a 1% conversion, you need something like 5 million people

to become aware enough of this that they then click the link and have a look at the page. So, there's got to be like 5 million people, the entire population of Singapore or something has to go along and actually see this particular landing page, process it, and understand it. You know, which means you're going to be talking to a lot of people out there in order to get 5 million people to click a link. Um so, you know, that that like you're talking about big numbers.

>> You know, this is actually also good to know cuz I hadn't realized that like okay, so actually getting if this conversion rate stays exactly the same, we would Yeah, we would need 5 million people on the light to hit the landing page over the next 3 years. >> Yeah. >> Um hmm, interesting. >> Why do you think Let's talk about that particular number. Why do you think that 1% is not 3% or 4%? Like why do you think it's 1% and not 2%? What's holding

people back? Like what's the gap if they're clicking a link to have a look, but then they're not going ahead? What do you think is What's holding them back, do you think? >> Yeah, so I think right now our landing page is super under optimized. I think I suspect. Uh like it doesn't have the video on it. It's not entirely obvious what the thing does. There's no reason for any of There's no urgency or scarcity. Like you know, I I think if someone people were to

merely look at the landing page, the offer is not that compelling. >> Do you think that they that your typical person is really connecting the dots with this is what this product will help me to achieve? Like >> Ooh, no, I don't think they are cuz I think the the one of the problems that we're that we've noticed is that the the product is actually hard to explain. >> Yeah. >> Which is on us to do of doing doing a poor job of explaining what it

is, what it does, what problems it solves. >> Yeah. >> And like screenshots and stuff only go some of the way there. So one thing I was I was even thinking about is should we move away from landing page conversions and more towards a webinar or something that because some in a way we're trying to create almost like an all-in-one product video app that takes people through an evidence-based method for improving their productivity and achieving their goals. But they have to like it's it's it's hard

to explain in a nutshell that like oh, this is a time tracker or this is a calendar. It's like >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, in the interest of time, can I share with you some insights? I think I've got your situation. Like I've got the most important bits. In the interest of time, can I share with you some insights that I think might be useful? >> Oh, yes, please. >> Okay, so let's pause for a sec here. We are about 12 minutes into this sales meeting

and he has not mentioned his product a single time. All he's done is ask me three important questions. Number one, where are you right now? Number two, where do you want to be? And number three, what's getting in your way? And if you notice what Daniel's just done, he's just said, "Would it be okay if I share some insights?" So, he's asking for permission to move on to the next phase of the process. >> The insight that I want to share with you is that the

1% number is probably your biggest barrier to success. Um because if you need 50,000 customers in the the next 3 years and only 1% of those people are converted, and then there's also churn on top of that, uh you're going to have to have millions upon millions upon millions. And one of the reasons that only 1% of people convert is they don't understand the value proposition. And if they don't understand the value proposition, not only will you get 1% convert, you will also get a much

higher churn. >> Oh, yeah, okay, nice. >> So, the businesses that get the best results, they do a lot of education up front and they tell people so that they really understand the value proposition. And the more people really, really, really understand the value proposition, which can take 2 to 7 hours and a lot of interaction. All right? So, the research from Google says that it's 2 to 7 hours is the value proposition learning experience. And when people invest 2 to 7 hours, then they understand

the value proposition, then they buy something that they really want to buy, and then they don't churn from it. They understand how the product works and all of that. Now, you rightly said, if you just went PLG, product-led growth, you would give the product away for free, but because there's so much AI built into it, that would involve a lot of money that you would spend um on tokens. And that could potentially send you broke. So, it's a last resort and it probably involves getting VC

funding. So, here's what I'm thinking. There's a strategy that I think works really well for someone like you called short-form long-form lead-form. So, short-form is that you post short-form videos, and those short-form videos, they go out and find a new audience. And they go out to your existing audience, but they basically that that short-form video stuff, 500 billion short-form videos a day get watched. Um it is the most viral, it's the most it's the biggest trend at the moment, right? So, obviously you're well placed for

that. But what short-form doesn't do very well is educate. It's good at hooking attention. So, what we want to do is have long-form and long-form is where you have an explainer video. Yeah. Um and the explainer video could be anything from 5 minutes to an hour where you really deeply explain the product and the features and how it works. So, short-form would drive people to long-form and then long-form is to lead form. And lead form is where they make a decision to buy the product or

not. Now, at this point some people are ready to buy the product, but a lot of people are still >> not sure if it's for them. So, even when they understand it, they don't know if it's for them or not. So, what you can do is give people two choices. Choice number one is just go and buy. >> Yeah. >> Choice number two is to assess. >> Oh. >> Right. So, to assess basically means that you assess whether this product would actually add value to you

and you can actually figure out whether like how it would add value to you. So, you can say, "Look, there's two options from here. You can either buy my product for $200 for the year or you can carry out a 15-question assessment and based on how you answer those 15 questions, it will actually tell you what kind of user you'll be and what kind of benefits you'll get and how it will add value to your life." So, this is an online self-assessment. >> Yeah. >> So,

imagine this journey. Someone saw a short-form piece of content about how they could improve their life. They then watched the explainer video, call it 9 minutes, explaining the product and then they get two options. Do you want to buy or do you want to self-assess? And if they want to buy, they can buy and if they want to self-assess, they can self-assess. This process uh is going to increase conversions and also reduce churn because the lead-up to buying is so well thought through. They really understand

it. Now, when you get people landing on a buy or don't buy page, you typically get 1% conversion. When you get people going to a self-assessment page, it can be as high as 20% conversion. >> Overall? >> Yeah. 20% as in they're taking the assessment 20% are then buying as a result? >> No, the traffic that goes to an assessment page can be 20 to 40% take the assessment. >> Okay. >> The beauty of people taking the assessment is you also get all their da- da-

data. You get all the information. So, you get their name, their email, plus they answered 15 questions, so you know a lot about them, which means you can do really targeted follow-up. >> Yeah. >> Also, if they churn later down the track, you can target what was it you know what here's what you wanted, what was it about the product that didn't live up to expectations. So, you're getting the data up front. So, what are your thoughts about this as an idea as a strategy? Anything

you like or don't like about it? >> Yeah. Yeah, I like the short-form to long-form thing. Uh currently, we Yeah, the video on the side doesn't really doesn't really explain the thing. I'm feeling a little bit of intimidation about this explainer video because it's sort of like Like for example, today, we were thinking, "Oh, if we have time after this filming, we'll just we'll just record a quick loom." But actually, a quick loom is not how we would actually explain the value of this. This This

is not a quick This is like actually really thinking through the positioning, the like what actually is the method? How do we explain the method? So, that feel feels like a fairly hefty project that will take like a week, which is not necessarily a problem if it's a high-leverage asset. >> Yeah. >> Um so, that's like >> Not when you're building 10 million AR. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yep. >> Um one thing I >> the buy versus assess? >> Yeah, I think that makes a lot of

sense. Like so, one thing I'm I'm sort of as a as a question is what does that look like? Is it sort of like buy now or like take the free assessment? Cuz then we're giving to people two buttons to click or like mechanically speaking, what does that look like? >> Well, there's a couple ways you could do it. You could have the buy now page with if you scroll down to the bottom and you've still not clicked the buy button, you can actually have still

not sure, take the assessment uh to see whether this is for you. You could also have two links in the in the description of the video. So, you could say, "If you know that this is for you, click here. If you are not sure if this is for you and you want to take a self-assessment, click here." So, you can just give those Giving people too many options like six or more options means they'll choose nothing. There was a famous jam experiment um but giving people

a few options doesn't hurt. So, too many options is a bad thing, but two or three options is totally fine. That's why we see gold, silver, bronze, and we see all of those kinds of things, right? So, giving people, "Do you want to buy beginner, pro, or advanced, or take the self-assessment?" Totally legitimate, right? So, those are things that you can you can do. >> And so, you I I wasn't interested in you see you said there's 1% conversion rate. So, cuz I thought 1% was

like industry standard for this sort of thing. >> On buy buy or buy, yeah, totally. >> Oh, okay, fine. >> fact, I would say it's for you it's slightly low because you've got so much trust with your audience. >> Yeah, I think it should be higher. >> This actually should be much higher. It would be 1% for most mere mortals, but for someone who's got a relationship with millions of people, 1% is low. >> Okay, cool. So, what should we be aiming for just on the

buy page as well if we didn't do the other >> Let's say we kept the buy page at 1% but we pick up another 1% through people who assess. >> Yeah, I mean that doubles conversions >> It doubles conversions but it also halves the number of people you've got to actually like the easy part is doubling conversions. Halving the number of people who have to land on that page >> from 5 million to 2.5 million >> is much more. >> Way more doable. Yeah, so like

that's that's the real payoff. And then also the people who come through that channel if they're more likely to stick with the product long term if you can reduce churn even by a little bit your business goes like that. >> Nice. >> Great. Okay, that sounds good. >> So, our method for doing this is we would focus on us, our company ScoreApp, doing the assessment. So, you've got what you've already got. You would have to do the short form and the long form because you're a

expert in that. We could give you some advice on how to do a good long form but the assessment piece is where we're experts. What we would do with ScoreApp is we would build a really great landing page that is stand-alone landing page. Then we'd do the questionnaire and the assessment and then we'd do a dynamic results page where the dynamic results is based on how they answer the questions. And we would set all of that up for you. Now, there's two ways. We can either

do that all for you which is for a bigger company like yours we can just have a done-for-you solution or we can just hand over the blueprint to your team. They can use our AI tools and they can pretty much have a version one ready in about 6 minutes using our AI vibe coding tools that are built into the platform. Do you have an inkling towards whether do-it-yourself or done-for-you is your thinking on this? >> What are the prices cuz that would certainly >> Yeah, so

like for a business like yours you're probably looking at about 99 a month for like the top tier do-it-yourself plan. And that means cuz you can put thousands of people through this assessment every month. We could start you off on 39 a month and then up it if we need to, but 99 a month is where you'll probably realistically end up. And then for done for you, we would get our expert team to do versions of this for about $2,000. And essentially we would have our

designers and our like team and we'd use our AI tools, but we'd also have humans like doing most of the work to actually build something that really works for you. So there'd be like a setup cost because our designers and developers would work on it individually. >> Okay, I'm sure. Um >> So you could literally start for as little as 39 a month. You could be on 99 a month. You could scale up to that. You could do that later if you wanted to do that,

or you could just get started and we do it properly from the start. >> Mhm, interesting. Um okay, so I've come across this whole like assessment idea before. And we actually didn't did do like a quiz thing um a few months ago just to test it out. Uh and we just got Claude Code to make a quiz. So like what's the deal with ScoreApp versus just live code it with Claude Code for myself? >> Well, especially this year, Claude Code has just become absolutely awesome. And

um live coding all sorts of applications on Claude Code is excellent. Um so I here's the thinking on this cuz we had to existentially we had to think about this ourselves as a business and think do we actually just hand this over to Claude Code and let people crack on, or is there a role to play for ScoreApp? So when we really closely looked at this, we realized that creating a first version with Claude Code totally legitimate, totally smart thing to do. Realistically, having that be

an integrated part of your marketing system, having it be GDPR compliant, having the payment uh options always up to date, uh making sure that it doesn't error and break. There's like a dozen things that keeps things up and running long term and keeping it integrated with your existing systems and all of that sort of stuff. So like Claude Code is just so good at a initial prototype. But it becomes such a job if you want to keep this up and running. Yeah, all right? So the

idea here is is that like if it costs you half an hour a month to keep it up and running or an hour a month to keep it up and running. And you've got that mindset with a lot of things. Uh you end up spending a lot of time on this. So, it's kind of like it's a decision of would it be worth $100 a month to have my team of 30 people constantly thinking about it, updating it, doing it all for you, tinkering in the

back end, figuring out how to stay compliant if there's any changes. And for most people at your scale, you'd say, "Yeah, look, if it's important, which I think lead generation is pretty important for this project, then you'd say, "Look, let's let's have an expert job of it." If it's not or if it's internal, then you probably go with Claude code. Or the other role that Claude code might play in this is just doing an initial prototype test, you know. But but basically with Score App, you

can kind of do a prototype test pretty cheaply anyway. >> Okay. Okay, so I like the idea of the done-for-you option. Um does your team have experience in doing this for software products? >> Yeah, so we've got thousands of hours of doing this for software. I could show you lots of examples of software-related products that we've done this. So, we're our big our big industries that we work with coaching consulting agencies and software would be the majority of the users who use Score App. >> Okay,

nice. And then, so with the done-for-you option, like when I Claude coded the initial assessment, I just spent quite a lot of time really thinking through like what actually are the questions. So, how does that figuring out what the questions are >> Yeah, so this is the other thing with Claude, it's based upon all the data in the whole world um is where Claude Claude draws its information from. We have something called a context layer. And a context layer basically means that with our AI Vibe

coding tools and everything that our AI produces internally, it's all based upon the best-performing scorecards. So, by adding that context layer, we've actually already figured out what are all the best-performing questions that you should be asking people. And that kind of goes in and informs our process as opposed to just general questions that Claude might come up with. Um so, it's called a context layer and it basically adds advanced understanding to our tool versus uh general Claude tools. So, what we would do, we've actually got

15 magic questions that we know work really, really well. It's a combination of qualifying questions as well as assessment questions. The result is that you get very qualified leads with really accurate recommendations that that it does. So, essentially, we would leverage 10,000 plus campaigns like this to figure out exactly what you should be asking people. >> Mhm. Okay, nice. >> So, done for you? >> Yeah, that sounds like a good option. Like, what is the timeline on that? >> So, it looks like we just get

started. Our team are ready to go for for this sort of project. So, we'd probably have version one up and running in about a week. >> Yeah. >> Nice. So, >> Let's go. >> Great, let's go. >> Fantastic. >> [laughter] >> All right, so I've just agreed to buy something and at no point during this conversation did I ever feel like I was being sold to. Lesson number six, the breakdown of what was going on in Daniel's head. So, I asked Daniel to rewind a bit

and explain what was going on in his head as we were going through the sales process. >> So, here's what was happening in my head. What was happening in my head is that I wanted to go through a number of bases. >> Yeah. >> Right? The central part is discovery. And discovery is what is your current reality look like? What is your desired reality look like? And what are the obstacles or criteria that are stopping you from getting what you want? And and things like what

have you tried that hasn't worked? Is like where have you banged into obstacles that have frustrated you? >> Yeah. >> And then from there, I was doing a lot of listening, but then there came a point where I started doing more of the talking. And what it was happening in my mind is that I wanted to share with you insights. >> Yeah. Oh, the thing about the 1% and >> Yeah. And how things work and I was sharing with you like the two to seven hour

rule and all of those things. Then I was wanting to show you >> that, I was like, damn, this guy this guy knows his stuff. Like, >> Yeah, he's he's sharing some insights that helped me to understand the lay of the land. >> Yeah. >> Um then I wanted to share with you a method and I showed you we're going to have the landing page, we're going to have questionnaire, then we're going to have dynamic results. We're going to do short form, long form into lead

form. >> Yeah, and you never mentioned score at the product. >> No, I was just doing that. >> You were just showing me like a >> Here's how we're going to approach this. Yep, so I went insights about how things work method >> as to how we could approach getting what you want or more of what you want. >> Mhm. >> And then solution is where I start talking about Score app. And this is where I say insights method solution. So, I'm now saying this is

the lay of the land. This is how we're going to approach it. This is the methodology. And then solution, this is what we can do for you. >> Yeah. >> Right? This is And then here's our options. >> Yeah. >> And then you kind of What Here's what would have happened if it was a slightly different personality to talk to. >> Yeah. >> I might have sensed that you went a bit quiet. >> Yeah. >> And I would have said something like for a solution to

stick it needs to be like zero resistance. It's just a good idea. Is there anything about what I've presented to you that you think, "Hey, I've got some resistance to that. I don't think that's going to work." Is there anything at all that's less than perfect about what I've presented or that is slightly off? And that's where you might have said cloud code. >> Yeah. >> Uh any of those kind of things. >> So, you would Would you do that after the method after the solution

or like at every point along the >> So, let me put some little ends on this presentation. >> Yeah. >> So, over here [snorts] we discuss >> Yeah. >> and we complete. So, discuss means that we talk about what's less than perfect and we make sure it's a really good fit. And complete is we create the next action steps. So, what what we actually didn't do in that role play is I didn't say, "Okay, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to send you through

an invoice. Where do you want me to send it? Uh I'm also going to All you have to do is click a link and make payment. My team's going to assume that's going to happen and we'll just get started straight away. Right? So, that complete phase right? >> So, your team would get started before >> Well, with a company like ours we'd And with a client like you we'd say, "Look, what we'll do is we'll send you through the invoice. All you'll need to do is

click a link, set up an account, and give us the information. But that's the finance side. We're excited to get started. So, we're just going to uh get basically start onboarding you as a client and start the work. If If you're happy to go ahead." >> Nice. Yeah. And then that would make me not procrastinate from making the payment cuz I'd feel bad that like I've You guys have already gone started kind of >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, discuss and complete. Uh that happens

at the end. At the beginning we call this framing and rapport. >> So, framing is people having the right expectations, rapport is people feeling good about talking to you. So, essentially, that's the whole sales presentation. We frame it up, we build rapport, current reality, desired reality, obstacles, insights, methods, solutions, have a discussion, complete the sale. >> That's great. >> Simple, right? >> Yeah, it didn't it did not feel at all salesy when I heard it. If there are anyone's at this point in the video, like

there was nothing about that that felt like I was talking to a sales person. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it shouldn't it shouldn't feel like that. Um also, if I at any point had of said, "This is just not the right solution for you." I would have said, "Ali, for for these reasons, I don't think this is the right thing for you. Um I think you should come back to us when you've hit this milestone or when you've hit this target." Or if you had

of said to me, "Look, I'm really just getting started. We've got no money." I'd say, "Look, here's what I'd like to do. Get you on our free plan. Let's run a little trial, launch your waitlist, and see if it, you know, we can validate, and then we'll upgrade you when time is right." Right, I'm not going to twist your arm. Now, the other thing I could do, if I if I wanted to, I could break this into two calls. So, I could say, "I'm going to

present you with a solution. Here's what I'd like to do. I want to write it all down into a proposal document, send it through, and then I'll give you a call tomorrow or the day after once you've had time to fully digest it, and then we'll discuss it and complete the next steps." So, I could say, "This is call one and this is call two." So, that's where I would break it if I was going to do a two-call close. >> But, I guess if in

this context you have a pre-built solution, if you were like a marketing agency or something where you were doing done-for-you stuff, would you presumably you'd break the >> Yeah, so maybe maybe we say, um "Look, you've given me a lot of information to think about. I want to take this back to my um creative director, and what I want to do is actually come up with the exact right approach based upon evidence, and then I want to submit that to you in the next 48 hours

as to what we think would be the best thing with a price, and then if we can make a time, say 3 days from now, put it in the diary, so that we can just follow up and we can just discuss what you think about solution." >> Nice. That sounds good. And then Um well, so one thing with our last little bit of the company students is when they do the two cool close, what we have found helpful is to get them to not send the

to not send a proposal ahead of time because if especially if they're a new to sales, often like, "Oh, can you send me the proposal? I'll think about it." is just a polite way of saying, "No, thank you. This is not for me." >> Yeah. >> they send the proposal, they put all this work into the proposal, and then they're like, "Crickets." >> Yeah. I've sent 10 proposals and no one's responding. It's like, "Well, yeah." >> So we encourage them to, you know, ban them book

a meeting from a meeting and only present the proposal on the second So that's a great idea. And then as a last resort, if they're really like pushing for, "Can you just send it to me?" then okay, sure. At that point, you've probably lost the sale, but whatever. >> Yeah, exactly. So I love that. And then yeah, so my close would be, "You've given me a lot to think about. I'm 99% sure as to how we're going to approach it based upon everything I talked about

with the insights and the method. There's a few things that I want to actually put forward into a proposal and visualize so you can see them. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm going to do that with my creative director. We're going to sit down, we're going to create some visuals. And um and then I'd love to have a follow-up meeting and present you with those kind of ideas and those visuals. Uh how does that sound? >> Yeah, let's go. >> It'll take me about 48 hours to

put that together nicely. Could we just schedule it straight away? >> Yeah, I'm set. >> There we go. >> Easy. >> So that would be it. >> Nice. And that feels like in a way I'm I'm getting more freestyle. Wow. Oh, by the way, if you're enjoying this so far, you should totally download the completely free zero pressure sales system cheat sheet that we've put together from this video. That'll be linked down below, and I hope you find it very, very helpful indeed. Now, unfortunately, in

real life, most people wouldn't just say yes. Before agreeing to buy from you, they might have some objections or reservations. And so then that brings us on to lesson seven, which is handling objections without being pushy about it. >> Now, if I wanted to do a trial close, I could say I could say, "Look, because that's a bit of a commitment from our team, man. We're pretty busy. We got a lot of people to talk to. My assumption is that if it really ticks all the

boxes and it looks like something that would increase your conversions that we talked about, that that would be something you'd happily go ahead with provided it didn't cost us more than five grand a year. Is that Is that fair to assume?" >> Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. >> Yeah. Great. So that's all I need to know for us to go ahead and invest some time into creating something for you. >> Okay, but if I but if I was like, "Oh, I forgot a year. I was thinking

more like five quid a month." >> Yeah. So, in which case then I then I'd say at five quid a month the solution that you would go for is something completely off the shelf and it wouldn't be from us and you might want to use Claude code and all of those sorts of things. In which case I can send you some great blogs that we wrote on our blog about what you might want to consider in doing that. Um with a business that wants to get

to 10 million ARR, I honestly don't think there's anything that's five, 10, 20 quid a month, even 100 quid a month that is going to be a full and remarkable solution that gets you there reliably. I think a little bit of investment into something as important as this would be wise. What's your resistance around spending some more money on this? >> Oh, it's like, you know, we're we're bootstrapped and we don't have that much money right now and like previously we worked with this marketing agency

and we spent so much money with them and then it didn't get any results and so I'm always a bit like wary of spending money on marketing but you know, where the result isn't guaranteed. Do you guys like guarantee the result or something? >> Let me talk about that. Apart from that, is there anything else? So, like like what would stop you from just enthusiastically I know you've had bad experiences, you've spent money, hasn't worked, you've tried stuff that didn't work, right? So, fairly common experience

with all entrepreneurs. Is there anything else that would enthusiastically prevent you from just going for a big solution like the one we talked about? >> Um anything else? Well, I need to just I need to discuss it with my business partner. Um you know, he doesn't like it when I make decisions to spend large amounts of money without without his input. >> Okay. >> Um yeah, so I English would need to get involved. I guess it's part of me that's just like just I'm not sure

it'll work for me. Yeah, like would someone just take a quiz and then like buy our thing? Uh you know, I've taken quizzes on BuzzFeed and stuff but like I've never bought anything from BuzzFeed. I don't even know this if they sell anything. >> Yeah. Okay. So, here's what I'm thinking. We need to get you and your business partner into alignment around this because if there's resistance, A, it's going to cause friction. We don't want that. If this really genuinely wouldn't work for you, we don't

want that. And we ideally want to create some sort of a trial so we can see whether initially whether it seems sensible, whether this works. Here's what I think. In about 48 hours, something this week, let's get you and Angus on a call or face-to-face. We'll talk about how to conduct a trial where we actually test rapidly, quickly. Obviously, this won't be the best, most optimized campaign ever. But if we can create a a trial campaign that just directionally correct says, "Yeah, this is going to

work." And then if you and Angus say, "Hey, this is going to work." And you can see that it has promise, then you go, "You know what? It would be worth investing." Can I ask you, if you felt 100% aligned to this based upon data, you and Angus had analyzed it and you went, "This is the thing that's going to double conversions." What would be a reasonable amount to spend on this? What would be the kind of investment that wouldn't be unreasonable? Like, could you see

yourself spending 50 grand on something that works? >> 50? >> Yeah, like if let's say let's say it was super worth it. Like it was actually all the data was saying this doubles conversions and gets us to 10 million ARR. >> Oh, well, like if the ROI is there and it's obvious from the data, then yeah, I don't I don't really have a Yeah, but 50k would be reasonable. It's just >> Right. Yeah, so that the reason I asked that is it just tells me that

it's not really a price thing. It's does this a what does this actually work thing? Right? Like it's really it's not about It's not about the money. It's like it's just a reservation of it sounds good on the surface, but does it actually work for us? So to me, that makes a a lot of sense. Let's get Angus involved and I want to present other campaigns that we've done that we think would work. I want to show you best practice in the industry, like your peers

and we'll show you how they're using this and we can actually see. I want to Also, you mentioned like BuzzFeed quizzes. I want to show you the difference between an assessment and a quiz because self-assessment is very different to just filling in a quiz. And what the the end result is like, "Oh yeah, quiz, that's interesting." versus an assessment, "Oh yeah, this works for me." Right? So like I want people to I want you and Angus to really understand psychologically what this does to your customers.

So ultimately, I want to get you both to the point where you're based on data, evidence, best practices, case studies. There's no doubt this is a super sensible thing and it's nothing like throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks. It's actually a really considered strategy that should work long term. Yeah. Sure. Sounds good. Let's get it Let's get it scheduled. Cool. Because things are crazy at the moment with like just your diary, my diary. Would it be okay if we just fire off uh

a thing to Angus now and just see if we can find a time right now so that it doesn't drag on forever. Oh, yeah, sure, totally. That'd be ideal. Amazing. Nice. There you go. >> So, that was objection handling. >> It was a bit of objection handling, yeah. >> So, how >> What did you notice in all of that? >> What did I notice in all that? Um I noticed you did the thing where you were sort of screening for other objections. So, you'd be like,

you know, price aside, is there anything else? This is also a a doctor thing as well. There's you know, is there anything else? Is there any Like you did on the mark scheme for the exams, you have to keep on asking is there anything else until they physically say, "No, that is it." And then and you and then the fifth time you ask it, they'll reveal some like mental detail that they totally forgot about and then you're like, "Oh, that changes things." Uh so, that that

I thought that was very interesting. And I also noticed that you were validating all of my concerns and making me feel good about having the concern cuz I was feeling a bit embarrassed with that like, man, I'm I'm I'm a brokey or something, but you were like, "No, totally makes sense." And and stuff. >> Yeah. And also um the real thing is you didn't want to offend me by saying, "Oh, maybe this actually doesn't work." >> Yeah. Yeah, the price was a smoke screen for I

think this won't work. >> Yeah. And to basically say, "Look, uh there's it's totally fine to only want to invest in things that work. Like I would in in your shoes, that's exactly how I would feel. Uh there's a thousand things that you could do that wouldn't work. Like let's hope that this isn't one of them. Let's not waste time, energy, effort, and money on stuff that doesn't work. Like I'm 100% behind you on that." >> It really felt like your mindset approaching this is not

I'm trying to make the sale at all costs. It It really felt like you're sort of genuinely in my court and trying to trying to help me grow my business. >> Yeah. >> Is that like an act or is that like what's truly going on for you? Like >> The best sales people, they can park their desire to make a sale, and they can park their enthusiasm. And through experience, if you've had enough experience in sales, you know that signing up people where things don't actually

work or produce results is long-term bad for you. They they don't recommend you, they don't refer you, they end up being a total pain. They they also often they don't pay. So, they might put down a deposit, then you're chasing them. Uh they might ask for a refund, and then you got to you know do that that. So, what you discover pretty quickly is that it's actually a fool's errand trying to sign people up uh by forcing them or trying to trick them or any of

that sort of stuff. If you can just simply have an honest conversation and get people to navigate a situation thoughtfully, um you end up with a very happy customer who recommends you and refers you, and you are building a flywheel that gets easier and easier over time rather rather than harder and harder. So, even selfishly, from my own selfish desire, wanting to make sure that we do this properly and I'm on your side and that you feel good about it, even from my own self-interest point

of view, that's a smart thing to do. >> So, you're not trying to sell anyone into the thing. You're trying to only get the right people in. The people that can you feel can actually you can actually help them. >> I want a really great happy customer, cuz then my life gets easier. Now, here's what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that I'm the best thing in the world and there's nothing else out there for you and like I'm the only thing that would work for

you. I'm just saying it would be really sensible to invest in this. Like, I'm here, you're here, we're talking, this meets a lot of your criteria. Now, maybe there's some magical mythical thing out there that like does an even better job. I don't know about it. Right? So, like I think this is genuinely the best thing that I know of that would work, that meets all the criteria, and then >> And if you were a beginner to this and you were in the back of your

mind you were like, well, you know, they could consult with me, but to be honest, there's way There's people out there that would that have way more experience. Uh >> Yeah, and those people are more expensive. And those people already only work with Nike and Apple, right? So, you you know, you want to be able to present say look, there there consultants, there are better coaches out there than I am, but they already work with the CEO of JP Morgan, and they're not available for you,

and you can't afford them. >> Yeah. >> But I'm here, and you can afford me, and I'm available. >> Yeah. >> Um that's my unique selling proposition. Uh so, you know, those those things are real too. >> What are your thoughts on guarantees? So, I I I asked the question in the middle like, do you guys offer a guarantee or something? >> So, the truth was is I didn't actually offer a guarantee, but I did overcome the objection of I want to know that this works,

and I said, why don't we do a fast cheap experiment? Something that's directionally correct and gives you a bit more data. Why don't I show you case studies of best practice in your industry? I can show you other software products that have an assessment process. Why don't we actually uh ask for some of the data that's coming out? Uh we'll ask Claude for is there any research or data that shows having an assessment is actually a super great idea. Um so, there's all sorts of other

ways that I can reduce your feeling of this could be a bad decision without offering a guarantee. >> Mhm. >> I could also with some Look, here's the thing. With a really good client, I could also say, you know, genuinely, honestly, we don't offer a guarantee for everybody, but given that you've told me so much about your business and your audience, let's do a guarantee. If it doesn't work, we'll we'll back out of it. >> Mhm. >> Or we'll try again and see if we can

get it to work, but we'll do that at our expense. >> Yeah. >> So, that's totally available. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, it's sort of in your back pocket if you need it. >> It's in my back pocket, but I I didn't actually need it in that situation. >> Mhm. Nice. >> Yeah. >> What's that? >> Cuz wanting a guarantee is just I want there to be less risk. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Lesson number eight, the let me think about it objection. Dan, all this

sounds good. I've got to go away and think about it. >> So, you've had a look at this, you've got the couple of things I want to be clear about. We talked about the idea of 2 to 7 hours is the normal amount for people to understand value propositions, and that currently you're not giving them that. >> Mhm. >> All right, we talked about a method for that is to have self-assessment, um and that you don't have that, you've just got buy or don't buy. >>

Yep. >> Yep. Um and we talked about how we would implement that, and you're pretty clear about all of that to implement. >> Yeah. >> Fantastic. Okay, so I just wanted to make sure you're clear about all the stuff that we've talked about. Thing, is there any gaps that you've got in your awareness or your understanding of the strategy that that currently like you're just currently aware of gaps that you'd like this is something I need to specifically uh better understand. >> No, there's nothing specific,

you know, I just always I just you know, sleep on things before making a >> Yeah, and totally, yeah. And it feel this feels like a big decision at the moment. >> Uh yeah, especially with the done for you $2,000 thing. >> Okay, so the it's uh making a commitment of $2,000 that's the thing that feels like the big decision. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Great. >> Like if it was a $39 free trial then I'd be like might might as well give it a go, but

like >> Okay, so just so I'm super clear, there's just this uh rule that you've got for yourself which is I don't like to make a big financial decision that's thousands of dollars without just cooling off a little bit. Yeah, exactly. That makes total sense, right? Um especially if you're talking to someone who's like uh excited and engaged and like thinking it all through. I do this all day every day, so I'm like have a super high level of confidence and conviction for this strategy. You're

first time seeing it, so makes total sense. Here's a couple of things I'd like to do. What I'd like to do is get you set up on the free account, so while you're thinking about it you can just log in and actually have a look at the platform, right? And that's basically it's all the tools and all of that sort of stuff you can actually do that. I also want to send you through some academic research that I've recently found that kind of gives you more

validation of the strategy from the lens of academia. And I actually want to do this. I don't want it we live in a world that's so hyper distracted. I don't want to just like lose momentum and then you kind of drift off and start the whole process again looking out there and you're stuck with a 1% conversion. Cuz ultimately I my my main thing is I want you to absolutely solve the problem of the 1% conversion. I want you to get 2, 3, 4, 5% so

that you don't have to send spend millions of people to that landing page, right? That's going to exhaust you and burn you out. So, to maintain some momentum, I want to go back to my team and basically say we're going to get started with Ali and we're going to start building this. We're going to I'll give them the brief. We will literally start the whole process. Great. So, what we'll do is I'll get all the information that my team will need to get started. >> Yeah.

>> But, we're just waiting for your final like do you want to kill it? And if 5:00 p.m. tomorrow you say let's kill this off, we just don't want to do it, then totally fine. >> Okay. >> Uh we should have a trial ready for like a week. >> So, and for the record, I won't have to make payment now, I can decide tomorrow. >> No, we'll we'll just basically what I'll do is I'll collect all the information so that we can invoice you. >> Yeah.

>> Um but ultimately, it'll be no hard feelings if you say I don't want to pay that invoice. Uh I've decided against it. >> Okay, great. Sure. >> [laughter] >> It's basically like it it feels like such a no-brainer that like I have no shred of like resistance or anything. I'm just like yeah, it just makes perfect sense. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, that to me would be Yeah. That would be a pretty sensible way to go forward. >> Nice. >> What I didn't do there

is completely just let you off the hook. >> Mhm. >> Like I didn't sit there and say, "Oh, okay. Well, then I'll call back to see if you want to go ahead tomorrow." >> Yeah. >> I actually just slightly moved it in my direction. I said, "What we'll do is we'll assume you are going ahead. >> Yeah. >> But if you want to kill it off, you can kill it off." >> So, you're sort of getting the ball rolling. Yeah. >> So, it's essentially rather than

an assumed no until you tell me yes, >> Yeah. >> it's an assumed yes until you tell me no. >> Oh, nice. >> Subtle distinction. >> Yeah. >> Feels safe, feels somewhere in the middle. >> Yeah. >> But I've just simply said, "Hey, look. Let's Let's assume you are going to wake up tomorrow and go this is awesome. I can't wait to get the data and see whether or not this works." Right? Then we've got the momentum. We've harnessed it and we're ready to go right?

>> Okay. So, one of our beginners might be listening to that bit and thinking, "Oh, it feels unethical to assume a yes rather than to assume a no. Ah." >> [snorts] >> Yeah. Um well, it's also unethical to let people lose momentum when momentum is the right thing for them to have. Like Like let's go back to the doctor example. If someone said, "Look, I'm really really reticent about antibiotics, and I really just want to check with my um best friend who talks to me about

health, right?" I say, "Great. Here's what I want to do. I'm going to prescribe you antibiotics and we're going to give you a 7-day antibiotics and we're going to get you started, all that sort of stuff. You're going to wake up tomorrow, you're going to talk to your friend, and all that sort of stuff. If your friend says no, that antibiotics are a bad thing, give me a call and we'll talk about it. >> Right. Yeah, nice. You're assuming >> We're assuming that >> getting the

ball rolling. >> And the reason I'm assuming that is because it's the right thing to do. >> Yeah, you know it's in their best interest to take the antibiotics. >> The space that I'm coming from is that it is no way for you to proceed, based on this role play, for you to have the idea that 1% going to be enough for you to be able to get to your 10 million ARR. That's going to be exhausting. So, I'm sitting there saying, I don't want you

to be exhausted in the next 3 years. I want something that improves the odds of success. >> Yeah. >> I've got something that improves the odds of success. So, let's assume that you're going to want that and that you're aligned to it and until unless you come up with something and if if you wake up tomorrow and go, oh, I forgot to ask these three questions cuz I was just caught up in the moment, great, let's talk about it. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I heard

this thing that like 80% of sales is mindset and sort of just like really pushing this with his mindset of life through genuinely trying to help the other person solve the problem that they have literally said that they've had. >> Can I push back on that? I don't think it's 80% is mindset. It's like saying 80% of being a doctor is mindset. >> Okay, yeah, fine. >> Um, because there is actually a whole process that I talk you through and even if I had the right

mindset but I didn't take you through the right process, it wouldn't get you wouldn't you just wouldn't move through the bases cuz I've seen people with like a super positive mindset and they jump up all over their customers like a Labrador with dirty paws and it doesn't sell and then pretty quickly they feel negative about selling. So, this the three things is that you've got the right mindset of treating it as a profession. The mindset the mindset is I'm a professional. >> Mhm. >> Right? This

is a profession and I'm a professional. It's not I'm positive, it's not I'm motivated, it's not like I'm a super extrovert who licks people's faces when I meet them. None of that is the right mindset. The mindset is I'm a professional. The next thing is it's a numbers game. There is a rhythm to sales. Right? So, unfortunately, you can do your absolute best with selling and not everyone buys. They don't buy because it's not right for everybody, right? There are some people you disqualify them and

say it's not right for you. Some people self-disqualify. Um and then the third thing is sales conversations follow this predictable pattern and if you try and rush people through it by solutionizing too early, they resist. One of the biggest mistakes that new sales people make or new entrepreneurs make is the enthusiasm that they have translates to I'm just going to sell you the solution really quick. So, imagine this. I say, "Oh, tell me a bit about your current business." And you say, "Well, I've got this

landing page and it's only converting at 1%. Have you ever tried an assessment?" Right? Too much too soon. I didn't ask you any questions about where you want to be. I didn't ask you what you tried and didn't work. So, I just got super excited. Oh, we can help you with that. Kills the sale, right? So, the mindset's important and the mindset is I'm a professional. The numbers are important. Not everyone buys. We have to keep going even still. And then the way that we have

this conversation is really important that we don't solutionize too early. We don't just jump from here to here, right? We we take the time to unpack it all properly. >> I love it. And it's like mirrors very nicely to medicine. Like diagnosis before prescription, understanding before diagnosis, physical examination. Like it's just you follow the follow the method. I just I assumed that was musculoskeletal, but actually it was a heart attack. >> Or or or it was like I could imagine, obviously not being a doctor, but

I could imagine that after 20 years of being a doctor, you can like someone walks in and you just know. You go, "You've got arthritis in your left leg." And it's like, "I know." Um however, if you don't slow down and ask them the questions, you don't get buy-in from the patient. >> like they were listened to. They don't have a good experience even if you got the right answer. >> Yeah, so you might be 100% perfect. You might go, "You've got arthritis in your left

knee and you need to take this and you need in in 6 months' time you'll need a knee operation." And they go, "Oh." "No. I'm I'm I'm I'm out of here." Uh so, like even if you're right, you don't get the buy-in. >> Nice. And the other thing around reality, goal, obstacles, and stuff. I love it. It was a great. When you were doing the objection handling part of it, was there like a framework you were following for that? >> Mentally, my framework is that I

don't want to become adversarial with you, right? When people raise an objection, I know that it takes courage for someone to raise an objection. I also know that they're typically often feeling out how I handle objections. Sometimes the first objection is a weak objection and the real objection sits behind that. So, I want to make sure that we're on the same page. That I acknowledge the objection. That I don't think of it as a ridiculous objection. I want to put myself in your shoes and say

yeah, like it's a perfectly reasonable thing to answer. And then I want to answer honestly what I think is a higher, more important mindset to have related to that objection. >> Lesson number nine, this is too expensive or the timing is wrong. >> Hit me with a few objections and I'll kind of like go through that process so people can see it. >> Oh, 2,000 Oh my goodness, that just feels way too expensive. >> So, here's how I might handle this. Ali, if you're bootstrapping a

business and you don't have $3 million VC capital and all that sort of stuff, every single thousand dollars you spend, like you have to make sales just to cover that. And if if you've got your margins, you might have to make 10 grand worth of sales to pay for 2 grand for for us. >> 100% that's why it's expensive. >> Right. So, so so when I talk to entrepreneurs, it's often the case that they're not just thinking about the $2,000. They're thinking about what they have

to do to earn back the $2,000. >> Yeah, I mean in my mind I was doing that but like I yeah, I'm like totally. >> So, it feels >> [clears throat] >> it feels like a massive expense, right? I get that and I get that investing in your business is something you want to do. Like you want to invest, but there's no way you want to just randomly throw money at the wall and see what sticks. I'm totally on your side with that. Right? So, would

you would it be okay if I address that? >> Yeah, please. >> So, we work with a lot of early-stage founders. We work with so many startups. And one of the things that we recommend if they're you know, if money's tight is how can we conduct a fast, cheap experiment to make sure this is a really sensible thing to invest in? Cuz if it works, I know you've got no problem with it. But if it doesn't work, you want to kill it really fast and move

on to the next smart investment. So, what if we could do some sort of a fast cheap experiment so that you could be directionally correct that this actually would be worth spending money on? >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> That'd be fine. And then if that initial fast cheap experiment worked, >> Yeah. >> how would you feel about spending $2,000 based on dev- data and evidence and case studies? >> Part of me is thinking, well, uh the data, evidence, case studies from other people. >> No,

no, from you. Like we we run a we run a fast cheap experiment. >> Oh, okay. >> For your business. >> Oh, sure. I mean, if I see the data looks good then and the $2,000 gets an ROI within our appropriate level of margins, then yeah, sure, let's go. >> Great. So, here's the only thing I want to say about a fast cheap experiment. A fast cheap experiment is directionally correct at best. It's going to give you a direction of travel, but it's non-optimized. So, it's

a prototype. So, when we run this fast cheap experiment, I don't want you to think, "Oh, that's the best we're going to get." It's probably, I don't know, maybe it's 20 or 30% as good as we'll get. We'll probably get two or three times better, but at least it gives you a direction of travel. Yeah? >> Okay, yeah. >> So, we can have our AI tools build you a free version, and it will literally have in 6 minutes a landing page and questions and all of

that. What is the most low-risk way you could test whether people will actually take that or not? >> Mhm. So, I could just put a couple of Instagram stories, and just drive traffic to it and see what happens. >> Great. So, you post a few Instagram, we drive a little bit of traffic to it. What would be like an ex- like for you to see an acceptable result? I just want to make sure you got realistic expectations. How many people would need to take it for

you to go, "Okay, this probably could work."? >> Um good question. Probably if 100-ish. >> Yeah? >> Yeah. >> And from 100, yeah, we could then go, "Okay, off the back of that, we can see the data. We're collecting good data." Great. >> Yeah, although so so in this context, let's say 100 people take it, would there be a buy now button at the end or like >> For a fast cheap experiment, I think we just keep it super simple, which is that we create a

productivity assessment that relates to the value of your product. We ask them a sensible questions, and we give them a score and it's just like a super simple do they engage with it or not. >> Okay. And then the assumption is that if they do engage with it then >> But if we then if we link up payment buttons and all that sort of stuff, we're now into a full implementation. So, this is just to see do people complete it? Do we collect it good data?

Does it make sense that people are engaging with it and we're collecting good data? >> Yeah. Okay, so that will make sense. But I guess like my concern isn't will people complete the quiz cuz people I'm sure people will complete the quiz. It's will the completion of the quiz actually result in people buying the thing. >> Okay. So, what if we put a button at the back that says join the wait list or a buy now button but we don't even bother with the whole the

whole connections and integrations and we just see how many people click the buy now button. >> Mhm. >> And then we'll get in touch with them and say sorry we had an IT issue. >> Yeah, but yeah yeah that could work. So, we would show the price on the buy now page. Yeah, because if someone clicks it then the intent is at least there. And sure. >> Yeah. >> We can model our like checkout page conversion rate to be like okay well on average 30% actually

buy at the even when they hit the button. So, that that would give us we probably need more than 100 people to take the quiz then cuz statistical significance and stuff but >> Yeah, I mean 100 is a pretty good test but like like bear in mind we're just trying to see if this is I would I would rather than thinking about here's with the fast cheap experiment rather than thinking about does this work think about does this not work because with a fast cheap experiment

you'll you it's it's unlikely that it's going to work cuz we're just cobbling it together super fast. But what we will find out is if it doesn't work. So, the whole thing here is can we rule out that this doesn't work? And if it sort of directionally works then it's optimization and it's adding cuz you're at a terrible conversion at the moment 1%. Like we're just on the path to improving that. And that's all we want to be at this point. We just want to say

is this something on the path to improvement? >> Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. And when you say a fast cheap like how cheap are we talking to you? >> Like nothing. Let's just like because you're thinking about becoming a proper client like what if we just get our team to AI tool something together and we can have that this afternoon and you can share it and see if it works. >> Oh, for free? >> Yeah. >> Oh, sick. Yeah, let's go. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, okay,

cool. >> Cool. So, you've sort of acknowledged the objection, made me feel good about it, etc. Made me feel like I'm a good entrepreneur rather than entrepreneur for having that concern. And then we're just sort of working through it. >> Yeah, and I would say, if we get a reasonable result, 100 people, then we go ahead and you from there, just to be clear, you'd be happy to then go ahead and my team all like we're doing this because once it works and it or once

it once it proves that it's uh not a bad idea, then we can go ahead. >> Nice. That's good. >> Great. Fantastic. >> Let's take our Lifestyle Business Academy, which is our, you know, online business school thing. One thing we get a lot of is the timing objection. Like, "You know, this looks really good. I've been dreaming of starting my own business for like the last 10 years and I haven't taken any action, but it's just right now. Right now, the timing sucks cuz, you know,

my calendar is rammed. But, you know, 6 months out, the calendar's empty. And so, 6 months out, once I've moved house and once I you know, once the kids off to high school, whatever, then the timing will be right and then I'll really be able to devote attention and give my full focus to this, and I really want to make sure it works." >> Well, first of all, I love the fact that you're approaching business from the perspective of wanting to give it adequate focus. Because

here's what would really suck. What would suck is if you were super busy and you gave a half approach to starting a business, it failed, and then you blame business. And you say, "Oh, I'm not a business person. Business sucks. I suck." And it was none of those things. It was just that you were totally too busy. Right? So, like that would be I don't want that. That would be a horrible disaster. So, it sounds like for the next 6 months, timing is really like tight.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And like most people's calendar, 6 months out, you've got plenty of space in the diary, but in the next 6 months, it's all filling up. Um and that's kind of a rolling thing, that it's always that way. Like it's always the next 6 months, the next 6 months, the next 6 months. So, like unless you schedule something into 6 months into the future, it will always be like just a rolling issue right? >> Uh yeah, probably. >> Probably, yeah. So, um my

thought, like is it important to you? If you got to the age 60 and you'd never tried a business, you'd never started a business, you'd never even given this a shot, would there be some part of you that would be disappointed? >> Oh, yeah. I'd be upset. >> Totally. >> If I got to age 35 and hadn't done that, then I'd be disappointed. Okay. >> So, in which case, at some point we need to have a good start. So, here's my thinking. There will always be

the next 6 months, which will be rampacked. Let's just schedule this 6 months out. Like, let's just start putting starting a business into your diary 6 months from now. And when I say starting a business, starting a side hustle, doing something like that. So, we we put that into the diary 6 months from now. How does that sound? So, that it's like an immovable object, but it's 6 months in the future when you can mentally prepare for it. >> Oh, now I'm getting kind of worried,

cuz I'm like, I know that 6 months from now is going to come up. >> Yeah, no, I totally. And it'll always be like that. It'll roll, roll, roll. So, you've got to make a decision. Do you I am I okay with the disappointment having never started a business? Am I okay having never tried this to see whether I could do it or not? Or, and that and that's could be totally fine. You just say, "Look, for whatever reason, life got in the way, and I

can't do everything with my life." So, it just wasn't that important. It was a nice-to-have, it wasn't a must-have. Or, are you sitting there saying, "You know what? I I wouldn't be okay with that. At some point, I just have to prioritize this. I can't prioritize it in the next 6 months, but I can prioritize it >> Yeah. >> going forward. >> You know, this makes me realize that actually 6 months is arbitrary. I think like really I'm I'm going on holiday in the next 2

weeks. So, can I start 3 weeks from now? >> Yeah, I don't know. Can you? Do you think you can? >> Let me have a look. All right, let's have a look at the calendar. Um No. >> No, you're you're way too busy. You're way too busy. Let's put it Here's Here's what I'm pushing you for. Let's put it a few months into the future. >> Yeah. >> Right? That the start date The start date is 3 6 months into the future. >> Mhm. >> Right?

Like, let's take the pressure off. >> Mhm. >> Right? 6 months in the future is your is your go-live date on some stuff. >> Yeah. >> In the next 6 months, how do you feel about the idea of just committing to a little bit of training and education so that you've got a better chance of starting in 6 months from now on on foot? >> Oh, yeah. That how it Yeah. >> Right. So, let's think about it like this. Ad hoc training, flexible, right? A little

bit of accountability, and then activity 6 months out. >> Great. Let's go. >> That sounds perfect. >> Yeah, easy. >> Great. There you go. >> Okay, nice. So, it's interesting like what you didn't do there was was was try and cuz cuz the other way that I've seen people handle the the timing objection is basically sort of using that thing around, you know, the timing will never be right. Therefore, we should start today. >> Mhm. >> So, it sounds sounds that you were just were quite

happy for me to be like, "Oh, I said 6 months." >> Sure. >> Well, here's my question for you. What's in the best interest of the client? >> It's to do it when >> So, here's what I might do. I might do this. I might say, "Ali, I've got two ways that I could respond to what you've just said. Number one is I can take it on face value that you're being completely aware of your situation and that you are super smart to say not for

6 months, in which case I got a plan for that. >> Yeah. >> Or I have an awareness from speaking to you for the last hour that there's just this fear that you have around starting a business and that you've actually you're like actually the time's fine, but there's an underlying fear that it might not work and you might be embarrassed and you might do something ridiculous. I don't know what's going on inside for you. Do you think it's genuinely the external situation prohibits me from

doing this in the next 6 months and I need to start in 6 months and that's genuine or do you think there's some real fear sitting underneath of like, "I could start now, but I'm scared." >> Well, when you put it like that, I guess I think it's definitely the fear. >> The fear. Okay, so that's different to the 6 months. So, the fear is that you've never done this before. Right? So, can I share an awareness or an insight around the fear having worked with

a lot of entrepreneurs? Okay, so here's the insight. The word confidence in the worlds of statistics is something called a confidence interval and a confidence interval is how many try times have you tried it or how many times have you sampled something and when you do something like 30 samples, you end up with confidence. So, for example, if I wanted to launch Tabasco flavored toothpaste, if I got 30 people to try it and three people loved it, then I can have confidence that about 10% of

people like this this thing or it's not a crazy idea. It's the same with business. When you've never tried it, the school system didn't prepare you for it, you didn't prepare you for it, your family isn't a business family, it feels so foreign. The only way you end up feeling confident is through trial and error. So, the trick is that we want to do little fast cheap trial and error that doesn't embarrass you, doesn't shame you, doesn't send you broke, there's no real downsides, that it's

a safe way, but it's a way for you to build your confidence. But, the only way in entrepreneurship to build confidence is through contact with the market, through actually little like little experiments that we go out there. No amount of just waiting will overcome the confidence issue. You'll feel the same in 6 months time. So, the next 6 months that I have in mind for you is where we work together and we do things like launch a waitlist. And we do it anonymously, so it's not

linked to your personal brand, it doesn't impact your work. We might do things like just have a few surveys that we put out. We might do something like go and do some mystery shopping at competitors. Right? So, there's all sorts of things we could do in the next 6 months that's going to give you confidence. Right? But, the sooner we start that process, the sooner you can build up to confidence. I think there's probably 30 entrepreneurial things that we do in the next 6 months and

by the end of those 30 things, you've got unbelievable confidence. Right? >> Sounds good. >> Sounds good? >> Okay. That's yeah, I like the whole like, you know, the two ways we can handle this. And you're sort of not shying away from naming the Yeah. Also, if it didn't feel like you were pointing me out as being like you're a wuss. It's like, I've There's a pattern I've I've kind of noticed among lots of people I work with. What do you think might be going on?

>> Yeah. And also, the first question I asked is what do I think is in the best interest of the client. So, when I first asked you you you raised that, what if I'm just being a wuss? And I said, well, what's in the best interest of the customer? So, I went, okay, well, if it's in the best interest to get started right away, then let me raise that awareness. >> And finally, lesson number 10 is say the awkward thing out loud. >> One thing that

I love to do in a sales meeting is to ask permission to do something awkward. >> Uh yeah. >> So, I might say, "Allie, can I ask you a really direct question that could feel a little bit like on the spot?" >> Oof. Yeah, sure. Go for it. >> Is this a fear thing or is this a time thing? >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Right? So, like I anytime in a sales meeting where I feel like I want to ask a question, but it would be uncomfortable,

>> Yeah. >> I just name it. So, I say, "Look, I want to ask a question, but I think it's an uncomfortable question. Can I throw it out there and you can choose to answer or not?" >> Mhm. Nice. That's good. >> Yeah? And that that gets permission. Or, I might say, "I want to recommend a solution to you, and there's something that's holding me back from recommending it, which is that I know money's tight for you right now. You told me that. And the solution's

not free. Um so, I feel awkward recommending it. I feel like it's in your best interest to evaluate it, but I also feel like in just telling you about it, I'm creating unnecessary tension for you by just telling you that something is available that's not going to be within your budget, and it would require a stretch. Um do you think I should put that out there, or do you want me to just park that aside cuz you just don't even want to know about it? >>

I mean, I'd love to know about it. Yeah. >> Yeah, and then and then you could evaluate it. But, I'm just going to warn you up front, I don't feel comfortable with it cuz it's not in the budget you named. You said you could spend two grand, and what I'm thinking of is like three grand, four grand. Right? But, I want but I but I honestly believe it's the best thing for you. If it's okay, I want to just present that as an option, and you

don't have to accept that option if it is genuinely too much of a stretch. How about we just explore it? >> Sure. Let's go. Yeah. Nice. That's great. Okay, I love that. So, it's sort of like anytime cuz what what a lot of our students struggle with is like there's moments like that on the sales call where there's this tension. >> Mhm. Just name it. >> Yeah. That's this is a good strategy. >> Yeah, I'm Yeah. And also, there are times where someone's waffling, and I

can say, "Hey, do you mind if we shift gear? I feel like I've heard so much about your story. I've got the context that I need. And I'm loving hearing about you and your story, and you're telling me all sorts of interesting stuff. But, I've actually heard so much that I think I've got something that I could present to you where uh we can move this forward. So that's just like just name it. Yeah, so Don't don't don't just have the tension inside. Say that you've

got tension around this. >> Yeah. That's really good. >> Yeah. >> Have you ever been in sales meetings where the other person is very like >> Closed up. >> Yeah, and like >> Yeah, so going back here framing and rapport normally undoes that. So let's say you sit down and you're super closed, right? So let's role play on that. Um so close up yeah. Like really close up really like you hate my guts. All right. Um all right. So Ali, can I get your attention just

for a few seconds? >> Yes. >> I love the fact that you've taken some time to talk about your marketing and to get better marketing results. I want to take you through some detailed stuff today like some research, some insights, some data, some analytics. I want to show you some other campaigns that we've run. Um I want you to have like serious ability to evaluate what I say. Um normally this presentation that I'll take you through requires like both of us to get on the same

page and like I need to understand a little bit about your business, what you've tried that has not worked in the past. I don't want to stand on any landmines where you go hey we've tried that and it sucked. I also like it's super helpful if I can understand about what you're ultimately trying to achieve and how you measure success. So like for this to be really good value for your time and my time, I want to discuss analytics, how you analyze success, all of that

sort of stuff. Is now the right time we could do that? Like like could we engage with that maybe for the next 20 30 minutes? >> Funny thing I'm not I'm not super busy man right now like yeah. >> I'm picking up on it. Like I'm getting I'm getting a real sense that like at the moment you're super busy that you've just squeezed this in. You don't even realize why you put this in your diary in the first place. >> that. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A

friend recommended you and yeah. >> Yeah. So let we we could call time out on this but just so we don't waste your travel time and all that sort of stuff and I don't want to waste my time either. Is at the moment is getting better marketing results something that you're actually like focused on? Is it a major concern? Is it in your top priorities to get better marketing? >> Uh wait, yeah. >> Yeah? >> Right, yeah. >> Okay. Is there like would you say it's

in the top three, top five? Like is it an actual priority? Cuz the the context of this conversation is all around getting better marketing results and it's backed by evidence and data. And it's absolutely not smoke and mirrors or voodoo or any of that sort of stuff. It is how to get better marketing results. If that's a priority, then this is in total alignment with one of your top priorities right now. And if it's if if that if marketing results at the moment is not your

main thing, then we can park this and we can talk when you're ready. >> You know, actually, now that you mention it, I think the reason why I'm hesitant about this is because right now client success is actually a bottleneck. >> Mhm. >> I know that all my all my focus needs to be on that. >> Everything is on one particular issue that you're focused on, client success? >> Yeah, that's right. Like right now. Cuz we don't have a leads problem right now or a sales

problem, but we have a delivery problem. >> So you don't need more leads? >> No. >> Your sales is fine, but you're not living up to expectations and you got unhappy customers. >> Uh well, >> Or then >> They could be happier. >> Less less than thrilled, right? Okay, got it. So um this may or may not be this is directionally there are use cases that I can show you that help with this and lead qualification definitely has a downstream impact on that. Um fixing the

existing unhappy customers or the existing less than thrilled customers uh we may or may not be able to help with and probably not. Leaning towards not. There's something we could do, but leaning towards not. But fixing it long-term because of lead qualification uh and giving you the data you need so that you're not getting that impact up front and the downstream impact is happy customers. Uh I definitely know we can fix that. So we can fix the problem long-term, but if you've got like a short-term

I just need to fix Bob Smith because Bob's upset, um that's probably something I can't help with. Are you interested in having the conversation of long-term fix or is it just a Bob Smith issue right now and you just need to do that? >> You know, I'm here already like let's spend 20 minutes talking about this cuz I I marketing is going to become the next Yeah, once we once we fix Box method. >> Well, also, let's do this through the lens of customer success. Like

let's actually let's like normally I talk about leads and more leads, better leads, all that sort of stuff, but let's talk about the actual issue that you want long-term and I can totally do my presentation around long-term happy customers. >> Great. Let's go. >> Great. >> Nice. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> So, he's spending a lot of time in the just making sure the frame of the conversation is like >> Yeah, that's framing and rapport. So, everything there was just framing and rapport. Like is this

a valuable conversation to have right now? If not, my time's valuable, your time's valuable. I don't want to drag you across the you know, into this. >> One thing I remember you saying in our sales training thing was you framed it as I've got the cookies, you want the cookies or some something like that like >> Well, the energy that I want to have is that once I've asked the question is marketing results a priority right now? Um not really, customer success is a priority right

now. If I do have the ability to impact customer success, then I want to go well, I've got the cookies for that. I've I've got something that I've got something for you, but I'm holding back on that first cuz I'm going to do what are your current reality, what's your uh desired result, obstacles and criteria. So, I would then go into before I share with you how we do that, let me just find out a bit about what's going on so I know the lay of

the land. Tell me what's the current situation you're dealing with. Right? >> Yeah. >> Wave wave the magic wand, what do you want it to look like a year from now? How do you know success has happened? >> Yeah. >> Right? What do you think is your biggest obstacle for hitting that and what criteria you're working with? What external pressures are you working with? Okay, cool. Now I understand it. Let me tell you how we would approach this. Here's a big insight, here's a method, here's

a solution. >> Yeah. Love it. >> So, yeah, but I personally would never steamroll someone. If I'm picking up all the non-verbals of they don't want to be here, I'm just going to address that. Hey look, Ali, I don't mean to be offensive or anything like that. I'm just picking up on a vibe that you've got other places you need to be. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Um and your your your mind like I I whether I've caught you on a bad day, I don't know what

else is going on in your life. But if you've agreed to an appointment and you're just like I need to be somewhere else right now. I can respect that. >> Yeah, you're actually, you know, my my wife went into labor this morning and so it was like >> You should be there, man. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. All right, okay. >> Let me drive you there. >> [laughter] >> We can We can talk on the way. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. Okay. That's good stuff. >> Cool. >>

I think this is a good place to end this. >> Nice. >> Great. Thanks. >> Cheers. >> [laughter] >> All right, at this point there are three things I would like to offer for your consideration. The first one is that down below there is the link to the completely free zero pressure sales system cheat sheet. You can download that, print it off, stick it on your computer and you can start using it literally from today. The second thing is that if you are interested in potentially

turning your existing expertise into your own independent income stream, then you might like to check out my completely free lifestyle business foundations course that will also be linked down below. And finally, if you enjoyed this video and you want to see the road map of specifically how to go from zero all the way through to multiple six figures in revenue with your own lifestyle business, there's a video right over there. Thank you for watching and I will see you