Joe Rogan Experience #2579 - Gary Sinise

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> Pleasure to meet you, man. [music] >> Thank you, Joe. Good to be with you. >> It's always weird when you see someone, you meet him and you're like, "Fuck, I've seen this guy in movies since I was a kid and now here you are." You know, it's [laughter] >> I'm sure it's weird for you, too. I thank, >> you know, when you meet people

like that, like, you know. >> Oh, sure. I've seen your show and and whatnot and some of the UFC fights and all that and now we're here together. It's It's great. >> Yeah, it's very odd. Like, I just want people to know it's never it never stops being odd. [laughter] >> Well, I'm harmless. It's >> Oh, I know you are. You're a very nice guy, but it's just like you've been in so many giant movies, man. >> Some good ones. Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh my god.

You were in both Forest Gump and The Green Mile. Two of my all-time favorite movies. Yeah, >> those are amazing movies. And >> the 90s were good. I I did uh three movies with Tom that year and they were all they were all successful, all very good movies. uh Forest Gump and Apollo 13 I did right after that was Tom's next movie and I I did that after Forest Gump and then Green Mile was a few years later I think but only one little part but

it was a good part good part and it was a couple of days with Tom >> good part and you were again you're just to be a part of that Green Miles a huge movie it's one of my favorite Stephen King movies >> h very good yeah thank you >> um you're writing you wrote a memoir it was just what everyone who's lived an extraordinary life should do at some point in time. Write a memoir. >> Well, I I I I wrote a couple. I got

I the first one was is called Grateful American. That was that came out in 19 or in 2020 2019 actually. Um came came out that year and it it kind of documents how I got so involved with our veteran community and our first responders and all of that. I I I had been on so many tours overseas, USO, hospital visits, what whatnot. I was encouraged by my agent who I'd never, this is a book agent, and I'd never worked with her before, but she approached me

and said, "Why don't you document some of this stuff that you're doing?" And so I started to do that. And then it turned into an autobiography. I went back to through the history of my family serving in World War I, World War II, Korea era. uh my wife's side of the family, Vietnam, Cold War, all of that, Afghanistan, and then it just traveled all the way to the creation of the Gary Cine Foundation, which I set up in 2011, and so it kind of tracks all

of that. That book came out in 2019, and now I've got a new one coming out. >> When did you first start getting involved with first responders and military? When did this all start for you? Well, I I think it was kind of different steps along the way. Uh again, the family on both my side, the uh family of veterans on my side and my wife's side of the family. Um, back in the 80s, I uh because of my wife's brothers who had served in Vietnam

and her sister's husband, a combat medic, uh I started to get, you know, I started to spend time with them and talk to them quite a bit about what it was like for them to go and serve in Vietnam and then come home. And of course, it was a bad time to be in the service coming home from Vietnam. >> Yeah. Maybe the first time ever in American history where people were angry at you for fighting in a war. That that's that's right and it was

a very divided nation at that time and the Vietnam veteran had to crawl into the closet and you know hide in the in the shadows. It was a difficult time for them and I felt a lot of compassion for them after I started to actually meet Vietnam veterans through my wife and so I wanted to help them. I started helping them in the 80s and in the '9s I got to play a Vietnam veteran and Forest Gump. He was a wounded guy. So I started supporting

our wounded after that through the disabled American veterans organization. And then September 11th was uh in in the book Grateful American, there's a chapter called Turning Point. And everything up to that chapter is kind of teeing up what would happen after the attack on our country on September 11th. And that was a truly a turning point toward a greater level of service. I started raising my hand in all kinds of ways. for the USO and just going out to the hospitals and visiting our wounded and

you know having been involved with the DAV disabled American veterans in the 90s I was impacted greatly by the real life Lieutenant Dans out there and wanted to help you know our returning Iraq and Afghanistan veterans and so started supporting them in various ways and that all led to the creation of my own foundation which is now in its 16th year. We've raised a lot of money and deployed those resources all over the country doing all kinds of things and overseas as well. Well, that's phenomenal

that you put so much energy and effort into that because Lord knows they need it and they they I'm sure they appreciate it because it's uh it especially in today's day and age. It's such a we such a divided country and at least we should be able to love and respect and take care of the people that sacrifice everything, put their life on the line to serve our country. I mean, it's it is the the [clears throat] ultimate sacrifice and it gets, you know, depending on

what whether or not you agree with the war or whether or not you agree with the president and whether or not you'd agree with the the political movement of the time, you know, it that's how people feel about the military themselves. And I think that's that's terrible. >> I don't I don't care at all about that stuff. Um, I remember what it was like to come home from Vietnam from these I was [clears throat] greatly impacted by the veterans that I met coming home from Vietnam.

I was uh 18 years old uh in 1973, the end of combat operations in Vietnam. Uh, and then I met my wife's brothers and they started to really tell me what it was like to serve in Vietnam and come home to feel like the nation had abandoned them and crapped on them. And >> all that is that is the foundation that is a motivator for me to kind of take up the charge with those who deployed in reaction to the horrific attack that we all witnessed

on September 11th. We had a lot of people raising their hands after that and going off to serve and they started getting hurt. They started getting killed. Families started losing loved ones. I was and I just felt called to try to do something to help them and to try to ensure that if they were going to return from war that they would return to a grateful nation. And you could see remember in 2004 2005 initially everybody was like behind the service member they were uh responding

to Afghan uh what happened uh with Osama bin Laden and the attack on our country. People were raising their hand. They were going to Afghanistan. Then we went into Iraq and the nation started it. It had come together after September 11th and it started to divide and split again. And you could see one side was supportive of George Bush and what he was trying to do in Iraq. And then there was a whole other side that was, you know, really not in support of it. Having

so many Vietnam veterans in my family and remembering what it was like for them to get caught in the middle of that crap. >> Yeah. >> Uh I didn't want that to happen to our Iraq and Afghanistan veterans. So, you know, at at a certain point, I just started raising my hand and saying, "Hey, I want to I want to go visit them and let them know that there are people that that care about them and appreciate them." And that turned into just a a life

life mission. I don't want ever want somebody who volunteers to serve our country, go into harm's way, you know, sacrifice you limbs and lose friends and all of that to ever feel like nobody cares about that. You know, we should we should protect and defend our our defenders. They that's look at what they do for us. If we had nobody that wanted to serve in the military or put on a uniform uh as a police officer, a fighter fighter, what what would we do? what would

we do? We'd have to make people do it. That's what happened in Vietnam. There was a draft and that split the nation in half. We don't have a draft now. So, I'm I'm grateful that we have people that are willing to do this work. >> Yeah. No, I agree. I agree with you very much so. Um I had my first experience with a Vietnam veteran when I was in high school. I had a history teacher that was uh very nice guy, but he had a fuse

that was the short like you you couldn't light that firecracker. it was going to blow your fingers off. His his fuse was so short. And it took me a while to figure out like what is why is he what is going on? Cuz he's normal and then he would snap. Like I remember one time a kid didn't bring a pencil and uh he said, "Can I can I borrow a pencil?" And he pulls the desk out, grabs the drawer, yanks the drawer out with all the

pencils in it, and slams it on the ground. He goes, "Get a [ __ ] pencil. Pick up a pencil." >> This is the teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a teacher out of his mind. And we're like, yo, >> something's going on in there. >> 100%. And it took us like I No teacher had ever done that before. Like it wasn't that the kid was like starting fights or lighting a fire in the crowd. He just didn't bring his pencil. >> And so he pulls the

drawer out of the d of the uh desk and slams it with all the pencils. The pencils are scattering all over the place. And and I remember sitting in class going, "Should I run?" Like, [laughter] "What the [ __ ] is this guy going to do next?" He got everybody's attention then. >> He definitely got everybody's attention, but it was in a completely disproportionate way. But it >> when we found out, you know, cuz we would, you know, I'll go have lunch afterwards. Like, what the

[ __ ] I forget his name. Um I wish I could remember it because he was really, he was a cool guy. A really cool guy. It was just he had been through it. >> How did how did you know he was a Vietnam veteran at that? >> We found out from other teachers. We found out from other classmates. And u >> after the after that incident before >> I think it was along the way cuz it wasn't just that incident. He his fuse was he

was READY TO POP AT ANY MOMENT. >> IT WAS LIKE it would come out of nowhere and I maybe it was in response to unruly kids and teaching them how to get in line. But I went to a pretty soft school in high school. I went to Newton South High School. Really nice suburb of mass of Boston in Massachusetts. Very nice neighborhood. very no gang fights in my school. It was very very peaceful, great academic school. Everyone was nice. I mean, normal [ __ ] Kids

got in fights and normal stuff, but it wasn't anything scary. We weren't scary kids. So, when he would pop and snap, it was like, whoa, where's this coming from? >> It makes me I grew up in the same kind of uh environment. Nice suburb of Chicago. Um, great high school, Highland Park High School. It was a great high school. And it makes me think, I wonder if there were teachers at my high school who had gone through the war and then came came home and and

taught. I never met never met any until my wife's >> brothers. I never met a Vietnam veteran until then. >> Had to be. Now that I'm thinking about it, this might not have been in high school. It might have been in 8th grade. I have to be I have to be careful with this because I don't really remember if it so [ __ ] I'm so old. I'm 59 now. >> You're not old. >> But I'm thinking through it. And I'm like, it might have been

8th grade, which makes more sense cuz I was in Jamaica plane and it was a little bit of a sketchy neighborhood, but I'm not sure. Uh either way, this guy, this was my first experience with anybody that had been through Vietnam, whether it was eighth grade or 9th grade, different schools, but he was uh really smart and and just I could tell even as a 13-year-old kid, this guy was tortured. You know, something had happened. And then as I got older and saw a bunch of

movies on Vietnam and you know saw Apocalypse Now and it's like whoa gez like you just think of we thought of war as World War II soldiers going over there to fight the Nazis and you know and stop evil from progressing across the globe. And we remember that photo of that uh the the Navy sailor kissing that lady in Time Square. It's like one of the most iconic photos in history, right? >> And that's what war meant. It was like we're the good guys. We go

over there and then you see Apocalypse Now and you go, "Okay, well, what the [ __ ] is this?" Like, "What [laughter] is this literally what they dealt with?" And then you have these accounts of these guys that had to go into the the the tunnels and >> Yeah. tunnel rats. Yeah. >> Jesus Christ. You're like, and then there's no reason whatsoever that we should have been there in the first place. Like, wow. Okay. Well, this is war. >> Yeah. Yeah. And if you look at

then that's not the only movie Apocalypse Now from that era, right? Right. >> 70s and 80s produced Platoon. Yep. Casualties of War. Coming Home. I mean, there were a lot there were a lot of movies. >> I think Platoon was a little later, right? >> Platoon was 80s. Yeah. 80s. Uh Deer Hunter, another one, >> right? Deer Hunter. That was another great one. >> What Happens to Chris Walen at the end of that movie. >> Oh god. So you you look at all those movies, Joe,

and if you look at all those movies, just like Apocalypse Now, you just wonder, I don't think these Vietnam veterans are going to be okay at the end of this film. Right. >> Right. >> Forest Gump was the first time that a story about a Vietnam veteran was a happy ending story. We had never seen that story before. We'd never seen a Vietnam veteran come home, process all his anger, process, you know, isolate himself through booze and, you know, loneliness and all that anger, all the

things that were going on with Lieutenant Dan. But what happens at the end of that story? He's he's standing up again. He's got legs. He's moving on. He's successful in business. >> Uh he forgives himself. You know, we hadn't seen that positive story about a Vietnam veteran. I think that's in some ways why so many Vietnam veterans kind of appreciate that story because yes, there were those who came home from Vietnam and isolated themselves. My wife's one of her brothers that was like that. He just

he just, you know, had had a lot of trouble after Vietnam. And we heard that story over and over again, but we never heard the story of the guy who came home from war, was able to kind of process the war years and move beyond them. And that's that was that's of course that's the story we want for anybody who goes off to war. We want them to come home and be okay. >> We do. And we we like when that happens. And I think part

of the reason why we like it is because we know it's so unlikely because it's so difficult to come back from that and and reemer and just re-enter society and they don't get any help. And this is the thing that I found most shocking when uh I got older and I I met a lot of uh military guys spec specifically through jiu-jitsu through martial arts. met a lot of military guys and the thing that astounded me the most is how little help they get in reemerging

or re-entering into society and that you go from being involved in firefights every day and breaching buildings and shooting terrorists and then all of a sudden you're back in regular life and it doesn't make any sense and you no one's telling you how to deal with this. No one's giving you tools. You can get a little bit of counseling that doesn't seem to help. They could put you on medication. You want to you want to numb yourself to the whole world? You could do that. No

one wants to do that. And then no one wants to talk to you about it. It's And it's crazy to ask that of people. To take a regular person [clears throat] and just put them through boot camp, put them, you know, give them some training and then have them go kill people and then a few years later here they are back working an insurance company just sitting at a desk. Like what? How do you process that? It's hard to process regular life. Like regular life is

baffling to people. I mean, how many millennials and generation Z kids are just like so confused about life itself. Imagine that. >> Yeah. >> Think DraftKings isn't available in your state? Think again. The cage is set and DraftKings keeps the full card at your fingertips in one sports app live in all 50 states. Once the cage door closes, everybody has a pick. DraftKings keeps you close to the pay-per-view card from the first walk out to the final horn. Make your calls as the card unfolds. Download

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New York. Bet to get bonus bets that expire in 7 days. Trade to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. $50 in rewards issued every 7 days via click to claim for 21 days. One non-withdrawable reward redeemable. Terms at dk&ng.co/offer. Limited time offer. nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability varies by state. >> Yeah. And thankfully, I mean, even with things like that that do happen today, >> think back to what it was like to come home from Vietnam and have no

services at all and have the nation be completely uh you know, I had people that had bags of crap thrown on them when they got off the airplane >> and whatnot. Today, there are multiple services provided. You know, there are thousands of nonprofits that have emerged since September 11th, 2001 that are out there trying to fill the gaps where the government kind of falls down and we we don't have enough support. So, there is support out there for a lot of people. Unfortunately, many of our

service members that come home, they don't seek it out. They don't seek that help out. They isolate. We we don't want them to do that at the Gary Senise Foundation. We try our best to be very very proactive if we hear about anything. We don't wait for them to call. We call them. We try to we try to reach out. Mental wellness is a big part of what we do at the Gary Senise Foundation. And I know a lot of people that are in in uh

in that business to make sure that uh like your your teacher who's who's containing all that stuff, he's not talking about it. He's keeping all that in. We want to provide opportunities for them to tell their stories and come out. The more they talk about what they've been through, the more the the the the better it is, the better the chance that we save somebody from doing something bad to themselves. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm I mean um it's one of the things that I've learned

through jiu-jitsu um in particular is so many guys who came over there and needed something to really like push them and test themselves and just like release the demons and get out all the the pentup anxiety and that extreme physical exertion in jiu-jitsu and also the camaraderie of jiu-jitsu really helped them with a lot of that. It it's hard. It's it it's hard. You know, if you if you've seen a lot of buddies go down, >> you know, you've seen a lot of bad stuff and

you come home and just try to go on with life. Uh I I think it's difficult. The the one the one thing that I will say is I had my wife had two two brothers. One one died of cancer in 1983, but he he was a West Pointer. Uh two tours in Vietnam. Uh went as a platoon leader. uh uh uh lieutenant then went back as a captain a company commander came back taught at West Point as a major was teaching at Fort Levvenworth he was

just rising the rank he would have been a fourstar and he would have been involved right along he was Tommy Franks's age so he would have been involved with general Franks and and serving in Iraq I have no doubt about that he did better than the younger brother who came back and got out right he did his tour and got out and he didn't have the community around him. >> You know, my old the older brother had the military community around him. >> All these guys

had served in Vietnam. They're all around each other. They're still serving in the army, whatever it is. >> But the younger brother came out and he got out of the service and tried to do exactly that, you know, go work in a, you know, he ended up being a prison guard and ended up doing these just trying to get a job. He tried to go to college. He he never adjusted properly. So we want we want people to to know that there are services out there

constantly uh available to them. If they're you know if anybody's listening to this you can go to the Gary Sneeze Foundation but there are multiple services out there that uh can be provided if somebody is in need of help. We want them to know that >> people listening to this uh your website what is it garyisefoundation.com is that.org. Okay just to let people know to go there. Um yeah, it's just like the just the task of coming back and reintegrating it completely makes sense that someone

who stays in the military can adjust to it much better. You're just used to being around other there's a lot of camaraderie and community people being around other people that are experiencing the same thing you're experiencing >> or experienced, you know, because they went to war together. >> Right. You know. >> Right. [clears throat] Right. Right. Support each other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's uh it's you know it just it's the most demanding thing you could ever ask of someone ever by far. risk your life,

go kill others, and and then when you come back and you find out like, hey, maybe we shouldn't have even really been there, [snorts] you know, and that's it's >> people are questioning. Yeah. People question and what did I go through for? I mean, think about our Afghanistan veterans, you know, 20 years in Afghanistan >> and we give it back to the Taliban along with 80 billion dollars of, you know, hardware, American military equipment. And you've got a lot of Afghanistan veterans who lost a lot

of buddies, saw a lot of bad stuff, went through difficult difficult things, saying, "Wow, why did we do all that? What was it for?" >> Extraction. The the leaving was one of the most insane things I think I've ever seen. >> Terrible. Yeah. >> It it it made no sense. It was like the I mean I don't I want to look at this as charitably as possible, but it was one of the stupidest [ __ ] decisions I think I've ever seen to just leave all

that stuff there and just abandon just do it all in one sweep where people are climbing on top of airplanes and falling from the sky. And this is >> a lot of these people are people that cooperated with our troops while they were over there. people who are translators, people who help them, people work with our troops, and then they just abandon those people there. And a lot of them were killed. A lot of them were killed and probably tortured by the Taliban. >> Terrible. >>

Yeah. It's it's insane. The the the [clears throat] just the desperation to climb onto a jet that's on the runway, climb onto the wheels, and watching people fall from the sky. >> Crazy. It It was It was a It was a a botched withdrawal, as they say. Well, it doesn't even make sense. It's like, and then leaving behind all those >> tanks and helicopters. >> Like, at the very least, blow them up. At the very least, the [ __ ] are we doing? Where you have

these parades now where the Taliban does parades >> with our equipment. >> With our equipment, billions of dollars of tanks flying overhead with Blackhawks. It's crazy to watch. >> It It was bad. Imagine being one of those service members who used to drive in those in that in that that equipment. Yeah. You know, >> just absolutely insane. It doesn't make any sense. And then the, you know, you get into the conspiracy theories like they want to keep them armed. They want us to be able to

have some sort of a reason to go back over there. And you're like, "Please God, I hope that's not true. >> I just hope that's not true." >> You you you hope not. It was like, "We're going to get out by September 11th. That's going to be our date and we're going to withdraw no matter what." And that's what it was. I mean, set a date of September 11th and and get out. >> How about pick another date first of all? >> Yeah, >> maybe. Maybe

pick another date. >> That's the date they picked. >> It's you mean just because it's September, don't do that. You know, that that date means a lot to this country. I mean, to to leave in a terrible way on the day that marks the reason why we went there when we shouldn't have even really been there. I have I have very good friends uh you know special forces guys uh who were very involved in trying to do something to get people out of there during that

time during my buddy Scott man lieutenant colonel um he he served over there had a lot of Afghan allies that he was special forces guy so they work in tandem with our Afghan allies and whatnot and all of a sudden he's he's out of the service and he's sitting back here and He jumped in with something called Operation Pineapple Express to try to get a lot of people out of there. They did their best and they were, you know, they were really hurting. I mean, these

guys were hurting and they, you know, they didn't know what to do and they did their best to get people out uh through various networks and and whatnot. >> Yeah. Uh it was you know and they did get some people out and that that was important but they felt terrible for the ones that they couldn't get out and it was just a very very sad and tragic thing I think you know so you got a lot of Afghanistan veterans that are in a lot of pain

and we want to help them through we we don't want them to think that their service you know was in vain or anything. There were there were people that were free for a period of time because >> they were there and and that's a good thing. Yeah. Um, my buddy Evan Hayer, uh, he runs Black Rifle Coffee. And, uh, you know, Evan? >> Yeah. I I may have met Evan, but I love them. They're fantastic. >> I love him to death. Uh, he employs a lot

of people from Afghanistan. Afghanis work for him uh, and his pl guys that he worked with overseas. He brought them and their family to America when they helped us because this is before the extraction. So, it was before everything went completely sideways. >> But, uh, it sure did. Yeah, it's just I mean why would anybody trust us after that? You know, if you're in a country that Americans come in, they say, "Hey, uh work for us even though you live here. Work for us and we're

going to help you get rid of this terrorist organization that's running your your country." And then we're like, "Actually, we're not. We're out. See you. You're on your own." >> Yeah. Good luck. >> Even though you worked for us for 10 years here. Yeah. Bye-bye. >> Good luck. >> [ __ ] insane. Insane. And then to leave all those weapons behind all it's like this is the most chaotic mil it just like makes you question everything of your leaders like if you're willing to do that

if that's your decision that's the you looked at all the possible options this is the best way to handle this >> that seems insane >> hard hard to think that that was the best way to handle it. Sure. It seems like even [clears throat] if you wanted us to not be involved in there anymore, you just by virtue of the fact that we were there for 20 [ __ ] years, you've got to maintain some kind of a strong presence there. You have to. >> Yeah.

I mean, there were there were better ways to do it for sure, you know. Um, and and I, you know, I want these people to know that, okay, regardless of, you know, government decisions that may have gone wrong and and whatnot, uh, and they may have been affected by those things, there are grateful Americans out there. >> Yes. >> You know, that are involved in support and you should always know that. Uh, and that was one of my great motivators back in the early days of,

you know, after September 11th is to make sure that they knew that they had support services and there were people that were that cared about them. And you could see the nation starting to split and divide once we went into Iraq and things were and all of a sudden, you know, it was a bad time to be in the service. >> Yeah. >> And the news was always bad news and everything like that. I was going over to the war zones at that time and I

was seeing a completely different side of what was going on when I went there. For example, um in 03 I I went to Iraq twice in 03 and first tour was something called Project Salute and we were on a big entertainment tour. Kid Rock was on on the tour and Lean Wac and Paul Rodriguez and Dallas Gambo with cheerleaders and all I mean football players, basketball. It was a giant tour. Northwest Airlines gave us a 747. We all flew over there and we split up into

three groups and we covered a lot of ground in a week and saw a lot of people and lifted them up. This was about, remember when that statue got pulled down in the square? That was in April of 03, the Saddam Hussein statue. Well, in June of 03, I was I was over there and we were doing the first big USO tour. And I went back six months later in November. And I was in a convoy and they took took me out to show me a

school. I was with Wayne Newton. I was with Chris Isaac. Remember Chris Isaac? >> And I was with Neil McCoy, country singer. Neil, great guy. It was a great group and they took us they wanted to show us an Iraqi school that they had rebuilt for the for the for the kids and we pull up in a convoy and we're driving down the road. We got helicopters and you know a lot of protection driving. We pull in, we start getting out and the the entire school

of kids just runs out to the soldiers and starts hugging them and loving on them and everything. This is this is November of 2003. >> So I had not heard about anything like that going. It was all bad news. We were getting a lot of bad news. >> You see these kids just hugging on these soldiers and the soldiers picking up the kids and it was just it was very heartwarming. U the four of us ended up singing you are my sunshine to a classroom full

of kids and they didn't know what we were saying but they were laughing at us and it was very positive. I've saw a lot of kids. >> There it is right there. >> Like, yeah, that's that's that's the trip. That's the school right there. >> Wow. >> So, that's Neil right there next to next to me. There's Wayne over there. There's Chris. And this is uh the Abu Hastan school in Balad, Iraq in November of 2003. And it was a beautiful, beautiful day. The these soldiers

had they they had all been out there before. They had refurbished the school. the school was in disrepair. So these kids and these Iraqis just loved our soldiers and we weren't hearing anything about these stories, you know, these kind of civil affairs stories about our troops. So I came home from that trip and I started a school supply program and we started shipping school supplies over to those soldiers and they would take them out to not only that school first it was that school because I

saw these kids they're they're like they had these long desks in the classroom and there'd be four kids to a desk little Iraqi kids and they'd have one little half pencil you know that they'd be sharing no they'd had nothing absolutely Absolutely. So, we started sending paper and pencils and crayons and erasers and stuffed animals, all kinds of stuff over, soccer balls, sending all that stuff over. We started a program called Operation Iraqi Children. Eventually, we turned it into Operation International Children because we were shipping

to Afghanistan and Djibouti and Haiti and all these different places where our troops were deployed. The the motto of it was helping soldiers help children. We wanted to provide these materials for our soldiers to take out into these communities that could be very hostile. Let's say, you know, you the convoy moves in and guys with guns get out and the community is like very suspicious and very hostile. But when they pull in and start unloading all these boxes of stuffed animals and school supplies, all of

a sudden the community comes out. And we had people write us letters saying your supplies helped to save lives. your supply. We delivered your supplies to um to an Iraqi village and two days later we were going down the same road and the kids ran out and and waved and stopped our convoy and pointed down the road >> and there were bombs on the road and the kids that got those supplies just two or three days later >> saved that convoy from getting blown up. But

we we got a lot of letters like that from people that, you know, were serving in our military who were very very grateful that the American people supported Operation International Children and provided these these school supplies. You weren't hearing anything about these kinds of things at a certain point during Iraq. You were just hearing the bad news, you know, another convoy got blown up. Uh things are going bad, things are going terrible, you know, and all that. And you could feel like the nation starting to

really split and divide over whether we should be in Iraq or not. And I could just feel the service members over there just getting caught in the middle of that. And I did not want that to happen. So I just kept ramping it up and doing doing what I could to let them know we appreciated them. >> That's really beautiful. That's that's really cool. And it it say what you want about who decides where we go to war and what happens. I can't think of another

army that would do that other than the American army that would go in and bring school supplies and set up programs to try to help kids. >> Yeah. Well, well, >> regardless of whether or not you think you [clears throat] should have been there or you think it's a good idea to be in that war, that's that's a very uniquely charitable thing to do. It kind of reminds you of the GIS going through the German towns that we just decimated with with just multiple bombs everywhere,

carpet bombing everywhere and then walking through those those towns and handing out pencils and chocolate and you know trying to trying to engage the community. This was a very much a hearts and minds project. you know, just trying to provide our troops with something that would let them know that we're thinking about them back home and we're sending them these things, but also that would help them, you know, engage uh with the communities that they were that they were going through over there. It was a

very positive program. What was it like for you to have been there and see things like that, but then come back and see the news and see this version of it where it's obviously, especially the news on television, [clears throat] there's a very limited amount of time. Obviously, there's a lot of different things going on there all at once. And the things that are going to get people to pay the most attention are the horrific ones. It's casualties, >> bad news, things that people are going

to get upset about, whatever it is. >> Yeah. I remember, well, here's one example. Uh, we had a convoy going out with our supplies to a school and, um, a news crew was with them, right? Uh, documenting uh, for the nightly news or whatever our program going out there and providing all these school supplies to a school. Um, it was it was beautiful. The footage was great. The kids were happy. They got all these supplies. Uh the convoy left and it was attacked on the way

out, you know, I mean it left the school and down the road it gets attacked. The gunfight was on the news that night and the whole purpose for the convoy never made it to the nightly nightly news. >> So we you know the the the part of the story that said why was the convoy even where were they going? What what were they doing? Well, they were delivering school supplies to to a school. They were trying to help a school. we weren't seeing that, you know,

and it was unfortunate. I remember feeling uh I just felt pretty bad about that, you know, that the purpose for the convoy was eliminated from the story, but that all we saw was the gunfight. And that was that that's the way our troops were feeling. Like, hey, we we're doing a lot of good things over here to try to help people through this difficult situation. And all it looks like on the on the nightly news is that, you know, it's all going to hell. You know,

nothing's working. So, I felt, you know, I can't control what the decisions that are made or what somebody's going to tell them to do, but as a citizen, I can control, you know, trying to help them through that experience. And and that's what our programs were were like. And I think you know as I said you know we we heard from a lot of people that the programs were very very helpful. Uh that that particular school supply program lasted for about 9 years. It was uh

it was a program that started in 2004 and went to whatever that 2012 or something something like that. And uh it was a very very positive program and there were lots of programs like that from people here on in the states that just felt like they had to do something to help these these service members through a very very difficult situation. >> Yeah. It's got to be extremely frustrating when you're over there and you're seeing the news and you see this one version of what's happening.

And part of it, I think, is almost inevitable because the news just the format of what they're doing by covering a certain amount of things over one hour period of time. They just don't have any time and they have commercial breaks and >> it's like and then you have editors and the editor's job is to get the most ratings possible. The most ratings, what does that mean? Make things exciting. Put a bunch of bunch of crazy music, lights graphics >> show the guns going off. >>

Keep people locked in and then show them something disturbing. And then if the sort of the narrative in the country is that this war is a disaster and everything's going wrong, the last thing you want to do is show a positive story from the war, you know. >> Yeah. It's not dramatic, right? You know, I guess, you know, >> it doesn't fit what they're doing. >> I remember doing an interview with one news uh national news outlet. I said, 'Why aren't you reporting this, you know,

any of these good things that are happening? He was very honest with me. Bad news sells. I mean, >> that's what he said. >> Yeah, the Don Henley song. Yeah, that was that was hard for me to hear because I was I felt like one role that I had to play was to to talk to people about what I saw firsthand by going to the war zones and going to the hospitals and meeting and engaging with the troops and the and the people that were serving

our country. You know, I you know, not everybody can go over to the war zone and and visit the troops and everything, but I could. I, you know, I'm in entertainment. Lieutenant Dan showing up on a military base was uplifting to the troops and then I could come back and talk about what I'd witnessed and all the courageous things that I'd seen and the and the good work that I saw them doing and I wanted people to know about that. I felt the way that I

could serve was just by talking about what I saw. >> That's uh a very noble thing. It it it is really kind of the opposite of what a lot of people think of when you think of Hollywood movie star. You think of someone who's very selfish, very self-centered egotistical googling their name all day. [laughter] >> Well, let's see. Joe, >> you know what I'm saying? I mean, that's what people think about instead of someone who does something that's very selfless and is probably way more rewarding

and um it probably enriches your soul like who you are as a person far more than anything you're ever going to get from >> so celebrity can have a purpose beyond yourself. You know, I I I I I'm grateful that I had, you know, you know, I've had good good opportunities and fun opportunities. You you talked about some of them earlier. Great opportunities in the movie business. I was on television for 11 years, CSI New York, and then I did Criminal Minds Beyond Borders. Hollywood's been,

you know, I I had a lot of good, wonderful experiences with a lot of great great folks. And thankfully I, you know, I had some success and I did did well. Uh made some money. U had a have a public profile that I can talk about things. And I'll I'll tell you though, um, you know, I've been doing this a long time. It's it's a long it goes back a long time, but in the beginning, uh, and I've told this story before, but I really wanted

to go to Iraq after we first went in there. And I told you I went on this trip with Kid Rock. Well, I had done some movies, you know, Apollo 13 and some of these different movies. I hadn't done CS on New York where you're on television every week for 9 years and people get used to that kind of thing. But I remember calling the USO after we went into Iraq. I had wanted to go to Afghanistan. Uh but I was I was caught up doing

a lot of movie stuff. And now I wanted, you know, we went into Iraq and I really wanted to go and support and I called the USO and I left a message on their machine and said, you know, it's Gary Snee. I want to I want to go on a tour. Uh I want, you know, want to support the troops. Please call me back. And I didn't hear anything. And then I called again. I said, Gary Senise, I'm leaving a message again. I really love to

go on a if you're going on taking a tour over to Iraq, please call me. I really want to do. I didn't hear anything. And then I started thinking, h well, I'll call them back right now and leave another message. Hi, this is Gary Senise. I'm the guy who played Lieutenant Dan in Forest Gump. I'd like to do a tour. And then they called me back. [laughter] So, so they didn't know who Gary Senise was. I hadn't done that many movies, I guess. You know, uh,

>> well, it's probably very young people working there, too. I maybe you know this was so this was in 2003 you know I I'd done Ransom I'd done Apollo 13 but >> I was still kind of a character actor uh who this supporting guy all that kind of thing but everybody knew who Lieutenant Dan was and I so I sort of figured out okay they they're not sure who Gary Senise was so so [laughter] they called me back and I ended up on on the next

tour that they it was the first big tour to Iraq that they sent over there. Well, good for you for being persistent. What was uh that first big tour like? >> Incredible. Um yeah, they called it Project Salute. A lot of there were a lot of sponsors on this tour. The USO um the Intrepid Foundation was one uh the Intrepid Foundation uh is based in in New York City. Um Vanity Fair I believe was one of the sponsors of that. Tribeca Films, I think, what I

think Robert Dairo had something to do with being a sponsor of that tour. He ended up on that tour as well. Kid Rock was on the tour. Um, I think I mentioned Leon Mo, Paul Rodriguez, there was another band named Nappy Roots was on that tour. uh football players, basketball players, Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, and I was Lieutenant Dan, you know, and I would just go out and shake hands and take pictures, uh, sign autographs, you know, Lieutenant Dan, you know, tell them stories and sit with

them and visit with them and whatnot. And we were all over the place. We went into Baghdad. I remember f my my first trip was uh we we did a lot in Kuwait and then we got on a C130 and we went up to Baghdad and we landed at the airport and Kid Rock was on that C130. Uh there were there were other singers. Nappy Roots was on that and we pulled up the airplane pulls up and there are thousands and thousands of troops lined up

from the airplane where the airplane put all the way into this giant hanger where there must have been 5,000 troops in there sweating. It was 140 degrees. It was June. I mean, it was hot. It was messy. and we walked this gauntlet all the way into the hanger uh and got up on a stage. Thankfully, they had some equipment up there because they had kind of an army band like playing, entertaining people until we got there. So, Kid Rock grabbed a guitar and you know, John

Stamos was with us on that tour and he jumped on the drums, started playing. Kid Rock's guitar player grabbed a bass and they all started playing and we just put on this impromptu USO show. No, nobody really knew we were going to even do that, but we just started entertaining and thousands of troops there. There's footage of of all of that. We have we have footage on my on my website, garrisonfoundation.org, or our YouTube where you can see like there was a we put a video

out 20th anniversary of my first trip to Iraq. That was the first big trip and it was it was incredible that day to do that. go and see. And then I got home that night and we get a call. Tommy Franks, General Franks, who was running the whole war in Afghanistan and Iraq, uh, wants to take a small group back up to Baghdad and he wanted me to be on that on that trip to go on that trip. So, it was a handful of people. Dairo

was there. Uh, Stamos, John Stamos and Rebecca Roma Stamos were there. Um, handful of people were on that. Uh, and we went up and then we went into Baghdad proper, right? We spent that whole day at the airport the day before. We went in and we went to the palaces and we saw the palaces that we were now occupying and that was eyeopening. We saw a lot of troops, did a lot of handshake, picture taken, all that kind of stuff. That was that was that was

incredible to be in one of Saddam Hussein's palaces. And that wasn't the only time. I went back, you know, four more times to Iraq after that and, you know, got to see a lot of lot of stuff and meet a lot of people. >> What was it like being in Baghdad? Like what is what is that? It's got to be like a completely different world. >> It it Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was. There's a big memorial there. I don't know if you've ever seen it,

but those big giant sabers over a over one of the highways and every everywhere you went at that time there were statues and photographs and paintings of Saddam Hussein. You couldn't go anywhere in that country in that city that we were in anyway. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing Saddam Hussein. So, he had a lock on that on that country. It was incredible. There's one palace that we went to that had giant giant >> Saddam Hussein heads on every like post and you're pulling in and

you see just Saddam's head. It was just >> some of those, Jamie. See if you can find >> you. You could probably find them. It's >> I want to see the Sabers, too. >> It's incredible. The Sabers >> the Sabers over the highway. >> You can see the the the trip into the hanger and all that stuff. It was incredible. And we had so Tommy Franks is in on that trip with us. He's the general who's running the whole thing and he flew on the C130

with us up there. >> There's the saber. >> Crazy. >> That's incredible. >> So Tommy Tommy Franks is with us. We're in a convoy and surrounding us in that convoy were gunships. We had I remember looking out the window. I had a helmet on, flack jacket, all that stuff. And gunships are just flying along with the convoy on both both sides. There must have been four or five gunships protecting the convoy. >> How did that feel? Was what does that feel like? >> It was surreal.

I mean, I It was hard to believe that. Uh, >> well, I knew I was there and everything like that. I thought I was just going to do these entertainment type things like we did the day before. >> These statues. >> Yes. There you go. You know, everywhere everywhere you went, you had you had Saddam Hussein everywhere. >> Wow. >> Yeah. There there's the heads right there. >> Yeah. It's it's pretty crazy. [laughter] >> And there's the statue coming down. Uh and I was there just

a short time after that. >> I've read a bunch of stuff about his sons. >> Crazy. Yeah. They are some of the [snorts] most horrific stories I think I have ever read about like the evil son of a of an evil king >> doing terrible things. >> Oh yeah. >> That they would just find a woman who was getting married. They would take her from her husband, kill her husband, take her, rape her, feed her to dogs. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Feed her to dogs.

>> And they would watch and they would have like a ceremony. I was in a soccer stadium where they used to torture people. God. >> Yeah. Crazy stuff. I mean, it was that kind of intimidating the population to the point where they just submit and now they're just living in fear all the time uh of the Supreme later. You know, >> there's an account, God, I can't remember it was a book or just a long article, but I I read a a passage from it where

there was a doctor who was treating whether it was Uday or Cus, I don't remember which one, got shot a bunch of times and he had to get a bunch of physical therapy. So, some doctor was going over there and taking care of him and the doctor told it was like he acted completely normal like you would never know he was a monster. He was very polite. And then you hear the stories of the things that him and his brother did and you're like, "Good lord."

>> Crazy. Crazy stuff. >> Like Joffrey on steroids. Joffrey from Game of Thrones on steroids. >> It was pure pure evil. Pure evil. It was it was evil. I was in a uh one of the palaces. There was swimming pool in there and there was blood on the, you know, it was drained, but there's blood on the side of the walls. They used to take people down there and just kill them and torture them. >> They could do whatever they wanted. They had no >> pretty

much. Yeah. >> Hey, pull over. There's a pretty girl, you know, >> insane amounts of money, completely evil and sociopathic. Their father's a monster and and that's how they were raised and they had all the money in the world and all the power in the world. And you watch that, you would hope that like one of them would be like a Jesus figure like one of, you know what I mean? Like you'd hope one of them would realize like this is wrong. I'm going to reject

all of this. I'm going to, >> you know, study Buddhism or something, you know? >> I think they were living high, you know. They were living high at that time. I went to one of the one of the palaces that he was building is called the and this is surreal and you could you could probably look this up too. This is weird. Uh one of the pro problems uh the palaces he was building at the time of the invasion he called the victory over America palace.

[laughter] Victory over America. It's kind of wordy. >> Yeah. And it it was very very strange because outside of the victory over America palace that was under construction when the invasion happened were French construction cranes, you know. So a little little little weird. You remember some of our allies were not too keen on us going in to Iraq at the time we did, >> right? >> French construction cranes outside of the palace. We go into the palace. A lot of it is bombed out. Uh, I

have some weird pictures of me sitting in the rubble and in a in a golden chair and all this stuff. Come in and there's a there's a >> Yep. That's the victory over America. And you uh I remember sitting, you know, being on a balcony and there it is. That I walked in there. I was right in the middle of that. >> Uh that was like the big one of the big ballrooms and everything. Um, walking in there was very surreal. Uh, during a time where,

you know, it had been bombed and they had it closed off, right? It was surrounded by fence. So, not a lot of people got to go in there. But you see all this water around it? There was so much water around his palace that some of these farmers out there didn't have any water. He was taking all the water >> to make a moat. >> Yeah. To make his his beautiful little thing. And you can look up on on the opposite side of that water there.

The Flintstones was one of his favorite shows. So for his grandchildren, he built a Flintstone village for them to play in. And you could probably find that that was the weirdest thing. Just there it is. >> Whoa. >> You can pro Yeah. Flintstone village. And that was for just >> a great grandpa. >> Simply for his grandkids to play in the Flintstone Village. >> Wow, that's insane. >> It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day this week. Get 10 free boneless wings

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fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. It was insane. And I I saw all that and you know, standing there and and we had, you know, we had a tour guide. They didn't let a lot of people go in there. There it is. It was right across from the palace, the Flintstone village over there. They didn't let a lot of people go in there. Um, but they they took

me in so I could I could see it. And uh I I had a crew with me at that time that was documenting some of the things that I was doing for the troops. And so we put some of that on a film in a documentary that's called uh Lieutenant Dan Band for the common good. And they were making a movie about all my band concerts for the troops and the work that I'm doing and everything like that. And thankfully we got some of that on

film. >> Well, that's cool. It had to be very weird being in the Flintstone village that Saddam Hussein created for his grandchildren. How I mean how >> totally bizarre >> the energy in that spot must have been very strange. >> Yeah, you're kid. And you got you have farmers that >> got led in after that. And I remember one soldier who was showing us around told me that the farmers would just come in and see this palace and see what he was building while the people

were starving, >> right? and and and the farmers didn't have any water and they didn't even know that some of that water was there, but they came in and saw that palace and saw all that water water that they didn't have to water their own crops and everything like that and they would just break down and fall down and cry and with such rage, you know, he he really was an oppressor. >> He really was an oppressor and he's not unique in history. That's what's really

crazy is that there's so many people when they get to that kind of a position. Or is it the kind type of people that get to that position in the first place are just like that, which is horrible. It's a it's a horrible idea that the only kind of people that are going to rise to power are ruthless, driven psychopaths. >> Yeah. Hard. You know, I' I've I've also stood on the border between North and South Korea. >> Another example. >> Yeah. There you know, I'm

standing on the border. Yeah. You probably seen remember President Trump and he stood >> Yeah. >> He stepped across the border and went into North Korea. >> Yeah. >> Well, I've been there. I've been to that spot, you know, and you can you you could easily step over. It's just a little like cinder block thing that's on the, you know, that's separating the two two sides. And you've got the rock soldiers, Republic of Korea soldiers behind you here, staring just like this, staring at the North

Korean soldiers who are right over here. And very, very easy. You realize, you know, they're free over here. These guys behind me are free. And these guys over here, they're they're slaves. They have no idea what freedom is. No concept. They've been born into oppression. and they're there to serve the supreme leader and that's the way they've been raised. They have no concept. One one Korean soldier walked up to me and all that's all that's between us is this little cinder cinder block thing about a

foot high and I'm standing there and he's standing right, you know, this close, you and you and I. And I'm staring into the eyes of this slave and he's got no idea and he starts taking pictures of me. You know, he came down. There's a building up here and they spy on you. Yeah. There we are. Oh, right there. And that's that's that's the guy who started taking pictures of me. >> That's the same guy. >> Yep. >> Wow. So, he's got a document >> whoever

is on the other side. >> Yeah. He was looking at us through the window. >> There he is. Yeah. That building straddles the border, right? Half of it is on the North Korean side, that blue building there. And the other half is on the South Korean side, and there's a table in the middle of it, in the middle of the building. And the South Koreans can come in and sit on their side of the table, and the North Koreans can come in and sit on their

side of the table, and they have little meetings and things like that. That That's it. That's >> There it is right there. That is so insane. >> Yeah. I took my band over there. We we that's that's a bunch of my band members there. We've been there, you know, I don't know, four or five times. Uh there's the table there there. And that's that's the North [clears throat] Korean building. That's that's right there. >> How could they not work that out? >> So weird to each

other, >> you know? Yeah. >> Also, you're all Korean. That's what's even more crazy. >> Yeah. And they they don't and they don't they don't have any concept of what's going on, you know, from the free world. They >> I had a woman on my podcast a few years back. Her name is Yomi Park and she escaped from North Korea when she was really young. Do you know her of her? >> I've heard of her. Yeah. >> Yeah. It is a heart-wrenching story. It is. It's

insane what her mother had to do to get her out and what her mother endur what she saw her mother endured what she endured. >> Terrible. >> She went into China and then eventually made her way into Europe and then the United States. And it's like and you know her her stories. It's like this can happen. This can happen when people get into positions of power. And you have to be very careful of who gets into positions of power. You very careful what you give up.

Very careful what rights you give up, what what concessions you make because one of the the big premises with North Korea was give up your land the state so that everyone will have food. What a great idea. >> What a great idea. Oh, this way the farmers can't, you know, wrench us over or rake us over the coals for the price of crops. The government's going to be in control of that. Everyone will have food. Wonderful. >> Leave the government in charge. >> How's it go?

Well, the leader gets fat and rich and everybody else is basically starving to death because that's the only way he can maintain power. >> And the military gets fed. The military gets fed. Well, >> exactly. So, you should probably join the military. It's a lot better than being a farmer because they'll steal your crops. >> Yeah. And then on top of that, like you everyone has to rat on everyone else. It's a part of the culture. Like you have to tell on people. People went to

jail because when Kim Jong- Eel died, they didn't cry hard enough. >> Yeah. >> So, have you ever seen those videos of performative crying? >> Jamie, pull up those videos of performative crying. >> Yeah. No, they're standing there the entire months. >> Yeah. It's crazy. >> Months. They had a weep and whale in the street. And if you didn't do it right, if you were like, "Man, sucks that he's dead." No, sucks for you, [ __ ] They just put you in jail. >> You're you're

going you're >> they'll probably kill you. >> Like they could do whatever they want to do. It's And just complete fear. And again, a culture of ratting on everybody. Everybody rats on everybody else. No one has any power. No one has any money. >> Communism, folks. That's what it really boils down to. That's where it goes. Don't let it happen here. >> That's what the Nazis did. >> That's what the Nazis did. >> Here, so here here's the performative crying. I mean, it is absolutely crazy.

>> These poor people. >> A bunch of actors there. Yeah. >> I mean, it's just really crazy. >> You're not freaking out enough. >> Wait, you're not >> I don't like that guy. Lock him up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's >> I remember that really really well. >> There's a guy named Robert Seapolski. He's a Is he a What is his exact Seapolski's work? I know he's a a biologist. neuroscientists and primatologists. >> That's it. Um he believes in determinism, you know, and he thinks that

it's going to be one of the uh the the big things that we look back on this day and age and with uh punishment and the way we treat people, he doesn't believe in free will at all. He believes that human beings are the product of everything that's ever happened to them leading up to that moment. You don't really have free will. And I think it's a really interesting intellectual sort of exercise like this idea that you are a product of everything that's ever happened to

you. And it's determinism like all these things have taken place. Your genetics, where you're born, what you experienced, all these different things that lead you up to that point. It's You're laughing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because I don't believe that. >> I don't either. >> I don't. Well, but I don't think it's not a factor. This is what I think. I think the idea of making that a binary distinction that's one or zero. I don't think that's accurate. >> It can be a factor in a

society like that. >> Yes. >> Where you are raised with nothing else. >> Right. And you have zero free will. >> That's right. >> Right. And so it's not a coincidence that all those people have the same kind of lives. >> They don't know. They don't know anything. >> They don't have free will. >> That's why we have to be so grateful. You know, I'm a grateful American. That's I I wrote my book, Grateful American, because I am grateful that I'm here in this country and

I'm grateful for the men and women who provide that freedom for us so that that I can I've, you know, been able to pick and choose some of the things that I wanted to do in this life. Uh there are, you know, we have a military that is there to protect that. Whereas a military like the North Korean military, they are there to take that away from you. They're there to oppress you, >> right? >> Uh and militaries can be used for that. That they're not

the only uh country on earth that that does that. >> And through most of human history, that was the norm. >> Yeah, that's right. The king, >> you know, or the, you know, the emperor, whatever. >> This is the rare exception. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and and it's not a coincidence. This is the only country that has like the real other than the Greeks, the first experiment self-government. >> That's right. And this idea that you can really figure out your own path in life. That's why

that whole determinism thing it's like so [snorts] does [clears throat] Sodom Hussein take no he has no fault in all the things that he did and all and his sons his sons are a product of determinism. So that's the idea like if you were Ude Hussein you would have like killed those people and fed women to dogs. Really? >> Sure. [laughter] is that it's hard to believe. It's hard to believe, >> but I mean I have never lived as the son of a dictator that has

unlimited resources and is exposed to evil and psychopathy from the moment I'm very very young. So, who knows? I don't I don't know. I we don't like to believe that. Everyone likes to think that they are um capable of not ever falling into these traps that you see so many human beings fall that we're all uniquely wise and uniquely different. >> Yeah. Just just imagine, you know, on those kids being raised by psychotic dictator like that, you know, I mean, they had no choice really >>

in a lot of ways, right? I [clears throat] mean, if you you kids very uniquely imitate their atmosphere and you have children. I have children. It's uh you watch them you watch like cool things that they do. You're like, "Oh, I know where they learned that." >> And then >> if you're a murderer, you know, then they they think, "Oh, it's cool to kill people. It's fun. It's fun to just pick somebody up off the street and say, "Today's the last day of your life." Boom.

Yeah. >> And just laugh and go have a beer. >> Feed them to the lions. >> And Yeah. Feed them to the lions. and no consequences. I mean, we all would like to think that there's no way that you would enjoy that. There's no way that you would become those people. >> Yeah. I mean, you you you hope you know I mean that we are free here in this country. We don't we don't have to go down that road clearly. You know >> what is it

like just being in his castle? I have a buddy of mine who sent me a picture of him using his toilet. He Saddam had a golden toilet and he's sitting on it. Probably more than one. >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure he had a ton of golden toilet. >> It was It was like bad Vegas, you know. When I went I walked through, I see this kind of goddy looking stuff around. And >> what is it about dictators who love gold? Everything's got to be gold, >>

you know. Well, I mean, it was just there there's there was a one of the palaces had this giant chair. Everybody liked to get their pictures taken in this giant saddam. There it is. There it is. You you grabbed that really fast. That was >> So I've got I've got pictures in that chair. >> That's a cool thing to the right of the or the left rather of the chair >> in one of in one of the palaces. I've I've got a there's a picture of

me somewhere in that chair. >> What is that thing to the right of it? >> I don't Maybe like a >> It's like Aladdin's lamp. >> Yeah. Genie bottle. [laughter] >> Oh, is that what it really is? >> I don't know. >> Wow. >> Sit in this one cuz it's right up front. >> It's pretty cool looking. >> Everybody wanted a picture in that chair. >> Oh, of course. Look at that. >> I've got a few. [laughter] >> Look at that. >> So, >> that's that's

like a USO tour somewhere. >> Yeah. >> And that's in one of the palaces, one of his main palaces in Baghdad. I've got pictures in front of that. Those missiles are actually pointed at Israel. >> Wow. >> That's what I was told. I've got a picture in front of that. He's got, for people that are just listening, he's got these comic book looking missiles painted on the wall behind his golden throne. >> Yeah. >> And the missiles are shooting up into the skies. >> And I

was told they're they're shooting up in the direction of Israel. >> Makes sense. >> That's Yeah, that's what they That's what they said. >> Wild. >> It's it it's strange stuff. That's inside the palace there that was was bombed out. It's also interesting because this is kind of the first time in history where we get a real detailed look inside of like the palace of an evil dictator. Like you really get to see inside of it. Whereas >> in history we just have stories. We have

stories of how people lived and what they did. But this you get to see his throne. See the pictures on the wall. >> Yeah. Now that's one palace, >> right? >> So you know that's not the victory over America pal. He needed another one just down the street. He's going to build another one. But he had palaces in multiple cities around around the country. >> Of course he did. Wouldn't you want him have one palace? >> No, he had to have he had to have >>

I I was in the I was in the ones in Baghdad. Those are the ones I went to. But I went to multiple cities around the country and visited our our troops and did a lot of traveling around and you know I I I did uh I did five different trips over. There must have been a lot of laughing when the people were inside the palace. Must have been a lot of like what the [ __ ] is >> it was surreal for everybody. I just

I'm sure you know I mean people are looking around and all of a sudden we're occupying the palaces right >> and the dictators on the run. He was on the run at that time you know. >> How about how long after that did they catch him? not not not too long after I was there uh in 03 and uh the um the the fourth ID from Fort Hood actually they were the ones I believe that captured him under General Ray Odiero and I went to uh

Fort Hood in April of 2004 and that and the fourth had just come back and they were the ones found him in the spider hole and and dug him out and and got him. You know, they they captured him. So, it was some somewhere between November of uh 03 and April. I don't know. You could probably find the date. >> Hm. >> December 13th. >> December. Yeah. So, just after I was there, they found him. >> What is it? That is a surreal video. The video

of them pulling him out of that hole in the ground. >> Oh, yeah. And remember the pictures of now he's got a beard and crap. You know, he just looked like a rat. >> Well, how long has he been hiding in there for >> in the spider hole? There he is. Yeah. >> Look at that dude. Hey, mom. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Got you. >> Terrible. >> That dude. Yo, take a picture of me. >> That's Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. He looked crazy. It looked really

crazy. So, and everyone's taking photos of him smiling and having so strange. >> The fall of the king. >> And that was the hole. >> Wow. And how was he getting >> There he is. That's That's what they had on the hole. They pulled that up and they found him in there. >> Wow. How was he getting [clears throat] food and water and everything down there? >> Yeah. He people helping him, you know, take hiding them, protecting him. >> And how did they wind up catching

him? What was the story behind that? >> You know, I'm I'm not completely sure. Uh but they were they were on the hunt for him, you know, [clears throat] everywhere. >> For sure. >> And remember the deck of cards. You remember that? I mean, the the military made a deck of cards that had all the >> Saddam and all his leaders, all his top generals and everything. All their faces on these cards, and they handed them out to troops all over the place. This is who

we're after. We're after all these guys. Find them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They found a lot of them. Well, I'm sure once people knew that this [ __ ] evil dictator was uh not in power anymore, they're probably willing to talk. >> Yeah. And and he had to he had to have uh like an inner circle of people that were helping to protect him because >> here's a real brief uh they had two different spots they were going after. They cenamed them Wolverine 1 and Wolverine

2. 600 soldiers went after it. Didn't find them at either spot. And then someone kicked something. >> What? >> Yeah. the spider hole. There it is. >> Kicked a piece of flooring to one side, exposing a spider hole. Prepared to throw a grenade into it in case it led to an insurgent tunnel system when suddenly Saddam appeared. Soldiers struck him with a stock of his M14 M4 carbine, disarmed him of a Glock 18C. Wow. [snorts] >> Saddam surrendered. >> Wow. >> Yeah. He had a million

dollars in cash on him. [laughter] That's >> crazy. >> $750,000 of US bank notes were recovered from the spider hole and a Glock. Wow. Where was he going to go? >> Yeah. >> Wasn't that that was also the story with >> Didn't his sons Didn't they try to leave the country with like a million dollars in cash, too? >> I stumbled across a picture of like the proof of death that they posted like the New York Times of one of his sons dying when I was

looking for photos earlier. Yeah, I've seen that. It was rough. >> But I didn't see where they were when I was looking up. >> I think one of them tried to flee the country with a lot of cash, too. It >> was a crazy crazy time. >> Yeah. Well, it just I mean, throughout history, there have been people like that that have ruled over their country. Like for people that don't think that a military is important, you live a beautiful life in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Okay. I'm

sure I'm sure you got a great coffee shop you go to. I'm sure there's a great local theater that you like to attend. I'm sure you're a wonderful person. You know, I'm sure you got restaurants you really enjoy. I'm sure you're great. I'm sure. But that's not the whole world. >> Yeah. >> There's parts of the world like North Korea. There's parts of the world like Kuwait or Afghanistan or where they're in trouble, where there's people invading them, where there's all kinds of [ __ ]

going on. We're just extraordinarily lucky that we're separated on oceans on the east and west coast. >> Many parts of the world. >> Yeah. >> It's hard to believe there are still slaves in the world. You know, >> there's more slaves in the world today than there were before we abolished slavery in America. >> It's a bad thing. >> It's crazy. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's like the Libya situation. Libya is the craziest one. Like that story, that photo of the uh Americans with Saddam Hussein.

I mean, for him, bad day. Very bad day. Not as bad a day as when the rebels captured Gaddafi. >> Gaddafi. Yeah. >> That that video is crazy when they stick that bayonet up his ass. >> Yeah. Bad stuff. >> Just the look on his face of horror that he's being captured by these rebels. >> Just hated him. Yeah. >> And then afterwards, uh, Libya essentially becomes a failed state. And, uh, you have open air slave markets. Like you could watch open air slave markets on

YouTube for a while. What I understand people have contacted me from Libya and they said it's gotten a lot better since then. So I want to say that you know people that live there said it's not a failed state anymore. Like okay >> okay good >> noted but for a while pretty [ __ ] horrific. And uh the idea that human beings are still willing to enslave people in 2026 is insane. that that that that is still pro. So for people that don't think a military

is necessary, for people that it's maybe not necessary in your neighborhood, right? But just understand the the world is a a very dangerous place still and not much less dangerous out there than it was 100 years ago or 200 years ago in a lot of >> and I'll I'll support them. You know, the these are these are our defenders, right? We have young kids who raise their hand right out of high school or right out of college, >> uh, raise their hand to go defend the

country and they want, you know, they they want to do that work. We're we're grateful and we're glad that we have people that want to do that. >> Yes. >> And so we need to support them no matter what. We don't have any control over where they go >> once they sign up, but we do have control over how we treat them and how we support them. Unfortunately, this country is so oddly divided left and right um that for a lot of people support for the

military and support for veterans is a very right-wing idea whereas Hollywood is a very left-wing place. Did did you ever experience like some push back or some weirdness that you felt because you were involved with so many veterans? >> You know, I I guess I never never did. I just, you know, I was I had a television show. I was doing well on the TV show. The I got the TV show u CSI New York right around the time I had just done I'd done my

first trip to first two trips to Iraq in ' 03. Uh in ' 04, I was heading over to Korea for my first trip over there and I had been offered the lead role in CSI New York. And I I remember being on that trip trying to decide if I wanted to go into a television show or if I wanted to just keep doing movies. I didn't know what I should do. But when I got back, I decided to go into CSI New York. I had

that show for nine years. And it came right at the right time because I wanted to in in my book Grateful American, the chapter is called perfect timing and it's the CSI New York timing uh uh chapter which I talk about ramping up everything I wanted to do for the military and trying to do my best to help them through and at the same time having this public platform on a weekly television series and how perfect that was at the time. And I just kept kept

working kept working hard uh on the TV show. Didn't feel a lot of, you know, I I tried to tell everybody, "Hey, I'm going on a trip uh next week. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. I'm playing concerts on military bases all around the the country and overseas. Uh my hiatus from the TV show, I'm overseas doing some kind of trip. I come back, I talk about it." I never really felt I don't think that people didn't think that that was a good thing for me

to do. They may have had a lot of uh difficulty with George Bush at the time who was, you know, when I was first really getting involved in going on trips. He was the president and there were people in in the business that didn't didn't like him or, you know, didn't agree with him or whatever. But I wasn't going to let that dissuade me from supporting the troops because I remember what it was like again for our Vietnam veterans to get caught in the middle of

all that political stuff and I didn't want that to happen. So I just ramped up and did my thing. Um and I I don't recall ever feeling, you know, like the community turned its back on me or anything like that. I just was doing my thing. >> Well, that's great. Well, you had already been very established by then, too. That helps. It also helps that you're on a cop show. I mean, >> it was and I was playing, you know, it was great. My detective on

that show, M. Taylor, um, was a Marine, you know, and he was a Beirut veteran, you know, who was at the Bayroot bombing in 1988 when we lost 241 service members. And we made him I wanted to make him a Bay Beirut veteran. So, and we even had episodes where I talked a lot about what was going on there. And he was not only a Beirut veteran, but he was a 9/11 family member. I wanted to make him somebody who had lost his wife on on

September 11th at the World World Trade Center. So I felt honored to be able to represent those 9/11 families and also veterans that you know we forget about what happened in Beirut but that was a very very bad day for the country during the Reagan administration when we lost so many to a Iranian terrorist bomb bombing and um you know I just wanted to draw some attention to that. So I've been able to use the platform for you know to to do some good out there.

>> That's very cool that they let you put that into the story line. Um, I had forgotten about Beirut until you just brought it up. >> Yeah. >> You know, I I didn't remember that attack. >> What year was that? >> 1983. [clears throat] >> Yeah. I was in high school. I was in high school when that happened. I remember it. >> Yeah. And I was I was working on a play about Vietnam veterans to in Chicago at the time that that happened. And I remember

that day and I got all these calls from my cast members who were now focusing on our military and our veterans and and whatnot. And I remember I remember exactly where it was in my apartment when I heard about it. It was terrible. And since then I've met, you know, Beirut survivors, people that survive that bombing. And uh, you know, they they go through a lot of lot of pain on those anniversaries. For sure. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, most people in this country aren't even

aware of how many times we've been in conflict with Iran other than like what's going on right now. Like a vast majority, [clears throat] especially young people, [snorts] they don't know about what happened during the Carter administration with the kidnappings, >> right? >> You know, >> yeah, this has been going on a long time. You know, we've lost a lot of people over the proxies and all all that that uh they've supported over the years, you know. I look I again I just want I just

want anybody who serves our country to know that there's grateful people out there and we don't take what they're going through for granted. We want to help them through and we want them to be okay. That's what we do every day at the Gary Senise Foundation. >> That's a beautiful thing that you do, man. It really is. And that sentiment I can tell is honest and real and that that's really what you're doing. That's your real focus. That's awesome, man. It really is. It really is

awesome. And again, especially from someone who's a movie star. [laughter] Although, I gotta say, having these conversations with people like, you know, I mean, I've talked to so many actors on this podcast that turned out to be really cool who I was uh a little hesitant. You know, I was like, cuz I've had I've had very good experiences with uh [clears throat] actors in Hollywood, but also some ones that weren't so fun. >> And you know, but that's >> You don't have to tell me who

that is. >> I won't. But you could you could say the same about comedians or athletes or anything else. There's good people everywhere. But there's people that have it's a very uniquely weird situation to be a movie star, you know, and much like being a dictator, you can kind of get a big head, [laughter] >> you know. I I mean I I come from Chicago. I scrapped around in theater. didn't make any money for the longest time building a theater company there, Stephen Wolf Theater. It's

it's over 50 years old now. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. We start we started with absolutely nothing. You started it? >> I was 18 years old when we started. >> And now it's a in in if you go to Chicago, it's an entire city block in on the north side of Chicago. It started with nothing. We didn't even charge for tickets. We would put a I remember bringing a shoe box in and one of our first plays that we did. And I was like 18 and

I wrote donations on the side of the shoe box and we put it in the lobby and hope people would throw some money in so we could, you know, do another play after that. And now if you look at it, we've done hundreds of plays all over the world, you know, won a lot of awards. We built a building from the ground up. It's an entire city block. There's three theaters in there. There's restaurants, bars. I mean, it's a classrooms. It it's it's giant when you

look at it and you think that was started by kids. You know, here in this country, we can do some great things if we just we just bear down, right? You >> you bear down and you put your you know, I didn't go to college. I I just wanted to start a theater company. >> And that's where I learned how to act. I ended up making a living at it. Uh and I'm I feel blessed, you know, to have grown up in this country and certainly

grateful to the men and women who provide our freedom for us. How old were you when you first got interested in acting? Was it >> 16? >> 16. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, two years later, you start a theater company. >> You had a lot of get up and go, I'll tell you that. >> Yeah. I was a sophomore in college in high school when I did my first play and then I graduated from high school when I was 18 and I didn't want to go

to college. I I was just really struggling as a student and and in fact I had to go back uh to high school for for an extra semester because I didn't have enough credits to graduate. So I went back for another semester did another play. It was great and I I loved it. Graduated and didn't want to go to college and so I just started doing some plays, you know, in a little church. We found a space and we went in there with a bunch of

kids and we did plays for free. We nobody made any money. We didn't charge for tickets. It was all free in the beginning. It was just a passionate desire to kind of act and I loved it. And then then the theater company started and if you look at the early history of Stephen Wolf, it goes that's 50 years ago in 1976 I teamed up with uh the co-founders of the theater Jeff Perry and Tenny Terry Kenny. But then they went to college with John Malkovich. >>

Wow. >> Uh Lorie Metaf. >> Wow. Oh, >> uh Joan Allen who was nominated for like three Oscars and my my the woman who would become my wife just 5 years later, Moira, she became uh one of the members. We had an original nine people in the company and then it just grew and grew and grew and now so many great actors have come out of Steen Wolf and it's it's really doing very very well. Uh you know, still still going strong. I I'm going back

in a couple of weeks to do a book u book event for my new book there. Uh but they are running it well and a lot of people are coming and it's it you know it's hard hard to be in the theater business now after COVID things got really rough. >> Sure. >> But Stephen Wolf is has a great reputation is doing real well. >> So when you were 16 when you first took this theater class were you interested in it before that? Did you were

you inspired by movies? Was >> No, no, no. I was I was playing in a band. I I was I had a rock band. I got a I got a guitar and I was playing in a band and um we I've told this story where I was standing I'm probably ditching class or something. I'm standing in this hallway in the high school, Highland Park High School, and I'm with the other band members and we're all looking pretty scruffy and ragged and uh the drama teacher walked

by and she turned around, she looked at us and she told us she was directing Westside Story, you know, Westside Story about the two gangs and she said, "You guys look perfect for the gang members. Come and audition." [laughter] So, so I, you know, I laughed at her and she walked off down the hall, but I was curious and I went to the audition after school and there were a lot of pretty girls walking into the audition. So, I just kind of wandered in there. I

didn't know what an audition was or what to do. They gave me a script and said, "Read this part. You're on." And, you know, I got up there and I, you know, just stumbling through it. I was I was really interested in the girls and I wasn't interested in the script, but I didn't take it seriously. I was just goofing off and I got a lot of laughs and that I looked up the teachers laughing at me and everything. you and I don't know if you

ever audition for a play, but the next day you go to the drama department and you look at the lid the cast list you and every I come in and everybody's huddled around the cast list looking to see if their names on the cast list if they got cast and I went down and there's my name and I got a little tiny part in Westside Story and that changed everything. I mean, it's it's like destiny or something, you know? Remember the feather and Forest Gump floating

around? >> Forest Gump talks about destiny and all that. I think I just God put me in that hallway at the right time and that teacher walked by, told me to audition for the play and I ended up making a living at it. >> That's incredible. What a [clears throat] great story. So >> what so when you did Westside Story, what what what did it feel like the [clears throat] first time you performed that in front of an audience? >> Spectacular. I mean, I didn't I

didn't have a big part again, but I I became friends with a lot of the kids in the theater department. I again, I was a kid who was really struggling, going through, you know, do some kind of crazy stuff as a kid, playing in a rock band, uh not doing well, uh academically. I was about to get kicked out of school pro probably and I stumbled into the theater department and I made all these new friends in the theater department. We rehearsed. I just loved it

so much. I signed up for all the theater classes. I wanted to take all the theater classes. After that, we started performing the play. And you basically you do like when you do a high high school player, it's like Thursday through Sunday and you do like four shows. And I remember the last show, uh, I don't know if you remember this, but in Westside Story, Tony, the lead guy, gets shot and he dies at the end. And the two gangs have been at each other's throats

just fighting and everything. And at one point, the American gang, they go, two guys go to pick up the body of Tony and carry him. And he's kind of heavy. and two of the other the Puerto Rican gang come in and they grab him and the two gangs carry Tony off the stage and that's the end of the show and I was one of the guys that got to pick him up and lift him and he he had become my best friend, the guy that was

playing Tony and I pick him up and I'm carrying him off and I just burst into tears. >> Wow. >> I I remember it. I get choked up thinking about I just burst into tears. I get off. I I put my buddy down. He grabs me. He's hugging me. I'm just crying like crazy. The show is over, you know, very very dramatic. And then we have to go out for the curtain call. And you know, I was just a kid who did, you know, struggling. And

the the entire cast knew that I something had happened significantly to me during the course of that whole thing. And I'm standing there crying, you know, and all the lead characters right Tony Bernardo Maria, Anita, they all go and they stand in front of all the rest of us and they take their bows. And my buddy who played Bernardo after he took his bow, he reached back and he grabbed me and he pulled me up to the front to stand with all the lead characters and

take a bow. Nobody in the audience knew what that was about, but everybody on stage knew that the kid crying, who was barely making it through high school, had had [snorts] my life changed in a significant way. And from that point on, I just I just wanted to do plays and I became, you know, a a top theater student and, you know, got a lot of good parts in high school. And then that's where Stephen Wolf came from. We teamed up with with my pals and

we just we started a theater company after that. >> So that one moment where that lady came up to you and said you should audition. What a crazy fork in the road. >> That that is >> what a crazy [clears throat] fork in the road. If you've ever imagined what would have happened if you had zigged when you should have zagged and you weren't there. >> Yeah. I you know we can all sort of look at those moments. you know that there's somebody that stumbles along

just happen to bump into you and you know changes your life in a significant way. She did and I remember when my first book Grateful American came out she was living in Nashville and I stayed in touch with her over the years. I mean, without her, I don't think Stephen Wolf Theater would have existed because she fired us all up. And I just wanted to do plays and then now now you have a giant building on the north side of Chicago. And it started with high

school kids. And I remember my book coming out, Grateful American. >> And I was on a book tour like I am now. And and I called her up and said, "I'm coming to Nashville. I'm going to do some some press. Let me take you out to dinner." and I picked her up. We're out to dinner. I I think I had just done the Huckabe show. He had used to have a TV show there. And we're driving in the car. I get a call from my publicist.

And she says, "And I'm sitting here with the woman that remembers me as a high school kid who could I couldn't even spell or write or anything. I could barely read, but I somehow could memorize lines. And I was really a struggling kid academically, but I had kind of an intuitive I don't know. I just I just took to the theater. And I'm sitting here with this woman who who kind of remembers all that, right? And the call comes in that uh Grateful American hit the

New York Times bestseller list at number three. And I'm sitting here with her at the moment that I hear that. And I turned to her and I said, "I'm a I'm a best-selling author." And she she was just burst into tears. She could she remembers when I could barely read and write. [laughter] And here I am sitting with her telling her at the moment that I hear this this great news. And it was it was really just a beautiful very poignant moment. I mean it was

very special. >> That's making me tear up, man. >> It was something special. >> There's um a lot of people out there that just need a thing, you know? They need a thing where they can put their energy into that rewards them and shows them that they're valuable and that they can contribute and that they can really make something beautiful. And so many people never find that thing or they're never exposed to it or life gets too complicated before they ever get a chance to spread

their wings and and take a chance with something like that. >> You're very fortunate if you if you're uh if you find something as a young person. Yes. >> You know, because so many young people they, you know, they're, you know, they search for a long time to figure out what they want to do and, you know, and and, you know, thankfully and hopefully they they find it. I was fortunate. >> I was 16 when I fell in love with what I ended up being able

to do for a living. And that's that's, you know, that's a rare thing. You know, >> it's a very rare thing. >> It's a very beautiful thing. But I think I think it's possible for a lot more people to ever experience it. And I I really wish there was more things like that out there and more uh just some guidance, some direction, just push people in certain directions because there's so many people out there that just they just get stagnant and they don't know what to

do and then they spend all their time partying and hanging out with their friends and they never they never find it. >> You know what's you know what's heartening? I've been to all the um all the mil militarymies. I' I've played concerts for the kids, you know, these students, cadets or uh midshipman who whoever. I've been on all the all themies. [snorts] Uh and it's it's it's very heartening and hopeful when you meet a lot of these youngsters who are going to West Point, who are

going to Annapolis, who are going to the Air Force Academy, Merchant Marine Academy, Coast Guard. I've been to all of them. And every time I come away just feeling, wow, that there's an impressive group of young people out there. And I'm sure it's not only at the militarymies, but that these are these are folks that knew what they wanted to do coming out of high school, right? They wanted to go into an academy. They wanted to be a part of that service. They know that when

they come out of themies, they owe the country, you know, they owe the country four years. And some of them stay in the service for make it a career and go on and become great great leaders. Some of our great leaders and some of them you know just they get out after after four years or or whatever and move on to something else. But they've got such a substantial background by going to themies which are very very impressive and uh that that that gives me a

lot of hope. It does give me a lot of hope. And at the Gary Senise Foundation, too, we're we're trying to, you know, one of my objectives there is is to nourish and nurture a new generation of grateful Americans and to teach them about service and volunteerism and what that can do for you as a person. You know, gives life great purpose when you reach out and touch somebody and lift them up and help them. That's what I've tried to do at the foundation and and

just in in many decades of life just trying to give back to people that I feel you know that that are deserving of that. And so we take um one of you know one of uh the programs that we had uh at the foundation is called Soaring Valor. We've taken hundreds of World War II veterans down to the National World War II Museum in New Orleans. That's where our National World War II Museum is. Very, very impressive. Very special. I Anybody who's going to New Orleans,

I always tell them to go to the National World War II Museum. Well, we've sponsored probably [clears throat] 15,600 uh World War II veterans along with American Airlines who provides all the travel for us. We have a great partnership with them. They really are dedicated to our veterans. We put them on and we did 33 charter airplane trips with World War II veterans. We put them on the airplanes and then I wanted to add a component where we pair them up with high school kids. >>

So if you're a 16-year-old kid, you meet Mr. Johnson and he he served at Euima, you're going to be a travel buddy with Mr. Johnson for the next three days. We're going to take you down and you're you're going to spend time with him. That is a lifechanging experience for a lot of these kids. And we've, like I said, for 10 years, we we sent World War II veterans and students down to the National World War II Museum. Now we send them uh we send them

to Ground Zero and in New York to the Trade Center. We send them uh to the Pentagon to learn about what happened at the Pentagon. We send them to Shanksville, Pennsylvania. We send them to the Medal of Honor Museum in te in Texas in Arlington. Uh so we want we want to teach them about service and volunteerism and what it takes to keep us free. So they come come away from those places feeling like gosh, why didn't I know really that much about what happened on

September 11th? They're not getting they're not learning about that significant event and how that changed the landscape for so many of us because you know many of them I mean they weren't born then. So now it's up to us to kind of educate and uh we want to be a part of you know just nourishing this is a good country. There's a lot to be thankful for for living in this country and we want we want to look at that and we want to we want

to tell this young gen generation this is not a bad place. This is a This is a good place. We're lucky. You go go to some places that aren't aren't so good. You'll have a different uh opinion, a different perspective on it. >> Yeah, absolutely. Look, it's not perfect. People aren't perfect. It's not possible to have a perfect country. >> Why would Yeah. Why would we expect that? But I think that there's something about the incredibly challenging environment of the military that is an amazing vehicle

for developing young people and it because [clears throat] I think young people in particular need to be challenged so that they understand their potential and there's a a lot that comes out of that where these guys that come out they can do things that other people can't do. One of the reasons why is cuz they >> I've met some impressive people. One quick story landing on the Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier in the per Persian Gulf. Right. I'm on I'm on one of my tours. I'm going

here and going there. I land on this carrier. >> Helicopter. >> Uh no, it was a COD. It was like a 20 person airplane. Lands on the lands on the deck. >> Uh wow. >> Yeah. Lands on the deck. I get out. Uh this is my first uh first Afghanistan trip 2006. And I go up on the bridge and they're showing me around and uh I look over and you know they got the big wheel steering the boat, right? This is the there 5,000 people on

this aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf and steering the boat. There's this young guy and I walk up to him and I said, "How old are you?" And he said, "19, sir." Woo. And I said, "You're you're 19 >> and you're driving this thing >> and you're [laughter] driving this boat? Are you kid What are your buddies doing back home right now while you're out in the Persian Gulf driving this boat around? [laughter] >> Driving a 5,000 person boat." >> Yeah. Giant. There's a lot of

hardware there. [laughter] >> Holy [ __ ] And so you have to imagine like what caliber of person was that that he impressed the leaders so much on the ship that they would entrust him to take that job and and do that job. It was it was impressive. It was very very impressive. And I've met so many so many people like that who are very very impressive. I've been to the war zones. I've been to the hospitals. You know I've been on military bases all over

the world. I've done hundreds of shows, uh, you know, concerts and whatnot and met some of the most extraordinary people we have serve in our country. And I just feel blessed and fortunate and lucky that we have people like that, you know, that want to do that kind of work. I I wonder I often wonder what happened to that 19year-old. Did he stay in? Did you know what what happened to him? But for that moment in time, he can always look back and say, "I got

to steer the Ronald Reagan around the Persian Gulf." At least for that moment. >> That's incredible because I mean think of the average 19-year-old today. What the [ __ ] are they doing [laughter] in comparison to that guy? I >> mean that is a insanely difficult thing to just to be responsible for. >> You're responsible for 5,000 people on a boat >> that's you can land a plane on. >> Yeah. You wonder if they said just hold it here and go straight. You know, don't turn.

>> I mean, how long do you have to train? It's like that seems crazy that you could be 19 and have already trained your way to the position where they let you steer that thing. That's an extraordinary person. >> Standing on the deck of a carrier while the airplanes are coming in and going out going out is so impressive. The the operation is awesome. Watching our people in a very dangerous situation on the aircraft carrier. >> Yeah. you know, uh, just doing their thing, getting the

planes ready to take off, to launch, to catapult off off the deck, or to land. And that's a dangerous job out there. And I got to stand there and watch these these people work. It was very, very impressive. >> Incredibly dangerous job. Incredible responsibility. And the work ethic that you have to have to be a part of that that is just in the culture. It's just like this is what it is. >> That makes extraordinary people. And I think extraordinary people gravitate towards those kind of

challenges, >> but going through those kind of challenges makes extraordinary people >> you can develop. >> Yeah. And I just don't think they that resource is used enough or gets enough credit. It's one of the things my friend Evan from Black Rifle Coffee really emphasizes is that they hire veterans. They use veterans. They they they give to veterans. They they give to a bunch of different veteran causes and organizations. first responders, they they're involved in a lot of different things >> just to like sort of

emphasize that to let people know that we care and we understand and we we support you. >> And there are some great programs out there. Transitioning from the military, if you've been in the military for a long time and you're used to that lifestyle and all of that, >> transitioning out of the military >> into the civilian sector and kind of just uh, you know, >> figuring that out, that can be challenging for folks. And there are some great programs out there that are helping our

veterans kind of navigate that transition from, you know, 20 30 years in the military to something new, right? >> Uh we want them to be okay. You we're we're grateful out there and we want them want them to know that we are and we want them to be okay. >> Well, I'm really glad that you do what you do because it and that you have this message and you continue to spread this message on all these different interviews that you do because so many people just

kind of don't appreciate it or understand it. And um I think it's just I it without it we're [ __ ] Like without those people they're like some of the best people that we have, best young people that we have in this country. >> We need a strong service. We do. We are >> uh the [clears throat] where would we be if we if we didn't have the American military? Where would the world be without that? Think about it. You know, there was a natural disaster

or something like that. You know, we sent aircraft carriers. We send ships, you know, we we we don't just fight wars. We we do a lot of things uh that the military is very highly qualified and capable of doing. >> Well, this is also one of the reasons why people get so upset when the military is used in what people consider to be an unjust way like like Vietnam. I mean, that's why there was such a giant shift between, you know, 1945 and then the 1960s

in in the Vietnam. It's like 20 years later, you have this complete polar opposite reaction to military. >> I think I think we learned some hard lessons from what happened to our veterans when they came home from Vietnam. That's why there's thousands and thousands of nonprofits that have popped up after September 11th and our deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Uh, I think they they like me, they were motivated to ensure that what happened to our current day service members deploying to those war zones would not

happen like what happened to our Vietnam veterans when they came home. >> Um, do you know Marcus Latrell? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Marcus is a friend of mine and we we're [clears throat] actually texting today about some stuff and >> I'll give him my best please. He's involved in this Ibagane initiative that they're pushing through in with Rick Perry and Brian Hubert. It's a really amazing thing and and this is one of the things that I went to the White House to talk to Trump about

about pushing it through about getting that and and there's so many veterans that have had that experience and it's helped them just sort of reenter society, help them deal with their demons, help them overcome alcoholism and addiction to pills. I know some some people that's been very helpful for them. Yeah. >> Yeah. And um it's uh it that I think is uh it gives me a lot of hope that that's going to be available to more people. Just I know so many people that have come

back from that and had just nothing helps, nothing worked until they did that. >> Yeah. And and you you have several people that are just dealing with a lot of bad stuff. you know, then they, you know, we're there's a very aggressive and it can never be too aggressive, I don't think, um, effort to try to address this terrible suicide problem that we have, of course, in the services and and in our veteran community. >> A lot of people are focused on that. Uh, we we

support a lot of programs at the Gary Senise Foundation dealing with mental wellness and uh, you know, initiatives. It's very very difficult problem though because you have you also have a lot of folks that won't ever reveal what's really going on. >> Right. They think of it as a weakness. >> Yeah. They won't they won't ever tell you and that's why you hear gosh, >> you know, somebody took their life and even the wife, you know, wasn't didn't know what was really going on or best

friends didn't know or whatever. There were no signs whatsoever or something like that. So, how do you combat that when somebody's dealing with something that they won't reveal or I think I think it's up to u peer-to-peer um you know support we have to you know you have battle buddies in the war that you're close with. When you get home those battle buddies and when they're when they're with you and they're still with you and checking on each other and all of that stuff that can

be lifesaving you know those battle buddies. Absolutely. >> I know a lot of folks that are constantly checking on their buddies to make sure they're okay and >> that's one of the things Marcus does. He sent me a text today. Just checks in on you. >> Yeah. How you doing? >> Have a good week checking in on you. Have a good week. >> Yeah. >> It's beautiful. >> It's nice cuz it's real. >> You know, >> I'm always glad when somebody checks on me. >> Yeah.

It's nice. It's never bad. It's nice. And um I think that uh the culture of uh for lack of a better term, you know, manhood that men think that it's better to be stoic and to try to like keep it all to yourself and just deal with it and seek help. Seek help. Talk to people. Let people know that you're struggling. Yeah. Because >> we all have had someone who we didn't know was struggling who took their life. And it leaves you with this horrible feeling

that I could have done something. And you you don't know when when when do you act? When do you say something? When do you leave it alone? What do you say? You know, how do you do you [ __ ] it up worse by talking to someone about it? Do you make them think about it more? Is are you helping them by telling them you love them? And you don't know like when someone does take their own life and you feel that's is a ter it's

a terrible feeling to feel like you could have done something. >> Yeah. that if I had to just talked to them, if I had been there, I think I could have prevented it. >> Many Yeah, many feel like that. And but you don't know. >> You don't know if you could have, you know, >> it's a But if we're proactive, you know, that's that's the thing. Proactive with trying to make sure that somebody knows that there are services out there. Yeah, >> we're we're dealing with

people all the time at the Gary Senise Foundation who are going through difficult things and we have multiple services uh that we provide or and if we don't do it at the Gary Senise Foundation, we can provide u information about other organizations that are very deeply committed to ensuring that uh you know uh service members that might be dealing with something uh difficult know that there's a place for them to turn. We don't we don't want those sad stories and we have to be proactive in

in what we do, you know. And so that's one of the things that I can do, you know, I can talk about things to and on radio and television and podcast and u you know all of that let people know that there are services out there that that can be provided. >> And uh I you know I I hope that by doing that that's a way that I can serve the community just by passing on information and letting people know that they are cared for, they're

appreciated and we don't want them to to struggle by themselves. We they're not alone in this whole deal. >> Oh, no. No question. It's a service and no question it helps people because just having people know that someone cares is a lot. It means a lot. >> One of our great programs at the foundation is for uh the families are fallen and there are thousands of these families. Thousands of children who've lost a mom or dad in military service. And we have some great programs at

the Gary Cenise Foundation. One of those programs is called Snowball [clears throat] Express and we will take we're about to take over a thousand kids next month, all expense paid paid to Disney World and we've been doing this for years. We we did it at in Orlando uh in Anaheim at Disneyland. Then we moved the event um because American Airlines is a big travel sponsor of the event, our presenting sponsor. We we moved it to their hub in Dallas. And then in 2018, we brought Snowball

into the Gary Senise Foundation as a program of the foundation. I have a great relationship with Disney World and Disney because of movies and narrations that I do for them. And so all of a sudden, we started bringing all these kids to Disney World. And when you bring a thousand kids together that are all going through the same thing, I lost my dad, I lost my mom. When those kids get together and they engage in that community and they see that there there's a big community

out there of kids that are all going through the same kind of thing, they're they may cry a little bit, of course, you know, missing their mom and dad, but they're hugging each other and they're bonding with other people that are going through the same thing. It is profoundly impactful for these families. And we do it for families of fallen first responders, too. firefighters, police officers that are lost in the line of duty and and leave children behind and we bring them to Disney and do

the same thing for them. That's one of our one of our big programs. Of course, it's expensive to take these kids to Disney World and get the hotel and we take over an entire hotel and we've got hundreds of volunteers. It's a big it's a big thing. But when you see what happens to these kids and they can feel forgotten, right? that I mean, you know, maybe you've got a child whose dad or mom committed suicide and they're with a bunch of other kids who dad

or mom got killed in combat or something like that and you're the you're the suicide kid. Well, you're worthy of our attention because your parent served our country and and they they had fatigue. Something happened to them and they were a casualty of war. >> Yeah. And so we want these kids to know that uh that we don't forget about them. And this program has helped a lot of children, a lot of families go through a lot of who are going through a lot of difficult

things. And I show up and I play my band plays for for the kids every year. I've been doing it 20 years now. And it's it's a big rewarding thing to be able to take these these families. And again, we have hundreds of volunteers, corporate sponsors who volunteer and bring their, you know, bring their materials and everything. A lot of big sponsors for this event. It's it's very it's it's very rewarding to see what people can do when they just care and they just want to

do something to help somebody. >> That's beautiful. It really is. I I I think a lot of people are unaware of the suicide crisis of how many veterans have taken their own lives. And I I think what is the statistic about uh veterans versus the amount of people that died in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan? >> It's more. >> Yeah, it's quite a bit more, I think. >> I don't know the number, but it's it it's a lot more. >> Put it into perplexity and find

what the number is, but it's [clears throat] it is it is shocking when people hear about it. It just >> obviously something's going on. Obviously these people aren't getting the help they need and obviously something's not being addressed and they have been forced to endure something that most people couldn't even imagine which is combat duty. >> It's tough. >> Yeah, it's unbelievably tough and very few people can get through that unscathed. >> But but we can make a difference, you know. >> Absolutely. So here it

is. US troops and veterans >> comparison is roughly four to one. >> Wow. >> So, university cost of war study estimated that 30,177 deaths by suicide among post 911 service members and veterans versus 7,57 US military deaths in post 911 war operations. 4.3 times as many. >> Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] >> It's tough. They're they're all casualties of war. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And that's uh that's the right way to look at it. You know, Gary, you're an awesome guy, man. You really are.

Just >> I I appreciate that. >> The way you uh are able to dedicate your life like that to service is like really incredible. Is that the book? >> Great. >> Oh, yeah. Here. Here you go, bud. >> Great graceful warrior, Gary Senise. Um, it's really inspiring, man. Um, I hope people go out and buy your book because you're awesome. >> Really, I just you're you're a real genuinely good person and that's uh a beautiful thing to experience. Yeah, >> the book is about my son

and we, you know, I I I've been through a lot with families who have lost loved ones and that are going through grief and I've learned a lot from them uh over the years just seeing how they persevere through great challenge. And we hit we had our own challenge there with with our son. He was diagnosed with a very rare cancer called cordoma in 2018. He worked for the Gary Senise Foundation. Was a just a a great spirit, a wonderful guy. He was a great musician.

There are albums of his music, a resurrection and revival series of three records of music that he kind of wrote and tucked away in his files. And I discovered it. We lost Mac on January 5th uh 2024 after a five and a half year battle with this devastating rare cancer and uh after he died I started to discover all this music that he wrote. So we he had done an album in the final years of his life f the last year of his life was 2023.

He went to work on an album uh because he wanted to finish a piece of music he wrote in college and never finished. And he finished it and created an entire album of music. And uh then I found I started going through his laptop and his iPad and and I started to find all these m all these pieces that he wrote and beautiful beautiful music. and I I brought together all his collaborators who worked on the first album with him and we did a second album,

Resurrection and Revival Part Two and then I found more music in 2025 and we did resurrection and revival part three and I told the story of of that you know going through loss and grief and the loss of a child is it's the hardest hardest thing to lose a son and for my daughters to lose their brother like that. And so uh but the way he fought in with such grace and courage uh was inspiring and I learned a lot from from him. After he died,

I just started putting pen to paper and writing some things. And then it turned into this book, Graceful Warrior, the true story of a son, a father, and a family who carried each other through. And this is a it's a family story, as you can imagine. It's a very personal book. Um, it's not a book about cancer, fighting cancer, as much as it is about persevering through great challenge. And I, like I said, I've seen hundreds if not thousands of families go through a lot of

different difficult difficult things in their lives uh in military service. Wounded folks that are so banged up that they're never going to recover in, you know, the way they want. and their families just courageously persevering through each day, getting them through the next day and the next day after that. and they've inspired me so much over the years that I know that in some ways I was being prepared for what we would face in 2018 when when we found out our son had this this orangesized

tumor on his tailbone that was really painful for him and we didn't know why all he was experiencing all these this pain. He was a great drummer and he was drumming but he he was on tour after college and he was having all this pain just drumming. He finally we finally sent him to my wife's spine surgeon. She had had multiple spine surgeries and I asked her uh her spine surgeon to look at Mac. He put him in the CT scanner and saw this giant tumor

on his tailbone and that was tough. That uh that was in August of 2018. By September of 2018, he was having that tumor taken out. And in May of 2019, we found out the cancer came back and it started to spread. And that, you know, this is an incurable rare cancer. Maybe only 90 people per year are diagnosed with metastatic cordoma. You've never heard of it. I'm sure you haven't heard of it. Most people haven't. It's very, very rare. Maybe 300 cases per year in the

US. And that began our journey of chemo and radiation and multiple surgeries and Mac going through the most challenging time of his life. He was disabled by cancer. Couldn't write music anymore. Couldn't play music anymore. But what was miraculous about it is what he did in the final years of his final year 2023 of his life where he created this album of beautiful music called Resurrection and Revival. And he wanted to make some vinyls and he said, "Dad, I want to give these vinyls to people

and if we ever sold any, I want the proceeds to go to the Gary Cise Foundation to help our mission." He loved the foundation. love the mission and uh we continue to sell those vinyls at garyeneisefoundation.org and now the book comes out uh November 10th. Uh it it's uh it was two years writing this book and as you can imagine it was a it was a it was a hard one to write but but a good healing one to write for me to be able to

focus on it while at the same time I was putting the music together and producing the records. So, the past two years have been spent on that. Um, we're almost we're almost to the third an anniversary of losing him. It was tough. But I I want people to know it's not a book about cancer in in as much as it's a purse about uh about hope and courage. And Graceful Warrior comes from an interview I did with somebody who was asking me about him and that's

how I described him. He never g gave up the fight. He wanted to keep going. Uh you know his sisters, the family rallied around him. We pulled each other through the most difficult thing. And he was he fought it with such grace and courage. You know, just like >> I describe it. Remember the movie 1917? >> Yeah. >> The World War I movie. Remember >> at at the end they the two guys go on a mission. They've got to warn the the battalion not to attack

the Germans because it's a trap. And they go, they one of them gets killed and the other one gets to the trenches where the battalion is just about to come out and attack the Germans. And the trenches are so clogged up with people that he can't get through the trench to go down here and warn everybody. So what does he do? He jumps out of the trench and the bombs are raining down and he's running through the bombs and he's getting knocked down by the bombs

and he keeps getting up and he won't quit until he gets there. And I describe Mac as as that guy running through the bombs, getting knocked down and getting back up. He just kept getting back up as much as he could. Even though he was paralyzed from the chest down, his spirit was soaring. And it was beautiful to witness. And I I feel so privileged as a I mean, you've got kids. Just imagine. I I feel so privileged to to have had Mac in my life

for 33 years. We all do at our uh we all do in our house. And and November 10th, the day the book comes out would have been Mac's 36th birthday. So, it's a I'm I'm just talking about this book right now and and you know, trying to raise awareness. I think, you know, I got a lot of I wrote a story six month uh six weeks after he died and posted it on the Gary Snees Foundation website and I got so many wonderful messages from people

fathers who may have lost a child themselves and have like our service members kept that stuff in. And I remember reading some of these messages from fathers who read the story and said, you know, reading this story is making me want to share what's going on inside me that I haven't talked about. I thought I would just push this grief away and keep it keep it away and try to move on. And so I was encouraged by that. And I think that's one of the reasons

not only for writing it for Mac and writing it for the family, but for any family out there who may be going through something tough. who wants, you know, maybe some encouragement, maybe some, you know, some just some to find some strength and courage, you know, as they go through their own challenges in how we faced it and persevered through it. The grief will never go away, right? The the hole is always there. But you can learn to manage it, manage it a little better as

time goes on. And certainly if you feel like sharing your story is going to help somebody else. And that's something I I'm always talking to our veterans about, right? Share your story. Tell your story. Get that stuff out. Talk about it. It's going to be healing to not only you, but to somebody else who might hear something you said and find some inspiration and courage in that. Uh if sharing this story can do that for somebody, I know that Mack is is going to be smiling

about that. And uh go go go for it, Dad. Do that. >> I'm sure it certainly will help. Let everybody know. Graceful warrior, this is it. Is there an audio version of it? >> Yeah. Yeah, it comes out same day. >> Did you read it? >> I did the reading. >> Read it. It's obviously Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much, man. It was a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed this and good luck with this book. >> Thank you, John. >> And everything

else. >> Thanks for having me. [music] Bye. >> [music]